BOTM 52 First Spoiler - 1AD

[PattonTwo]

Great job Xcal. Well done with the early war success!

i'll add that I am replaying this game again to see if I can take some of what I've learned. Even with SIP (just to see how much effect that would be) I was still able to get a city settled where Mylene settled before Liz grabbed it. I'm not currently winning the culture war for the gold but did have it for about 10 turns and just pop rushed a library hoping for both better tech and a shot at culture stealing the gold back.

So I learned I need to be much more aggressive getting that 1st and 2nd settler out on these high levels. There's just not the time as with a lower game level to grow the capital to the happy cap and then build the settler, that was my first mistake. Then city placement was my second.

 

[Manco Capac]

But it's not a game breaking spot if lost.

Looking your city position, my guess it took time before working that gold tile. So, it wasn't a necessary tile for faster winning (one point for food resource over commerce resource...).
Well, by gamebreaking, it was related to Oracle date; as you said, your Oracle date was a "shot in the dark".

In my game, I discovered gold/corn location and since I was intended to worker steal, that way I would ensure that location for me. With gold tile, the lucky shot at Oracle becomes less lucky and more of a tactic, unless amongst all possible variations of wonder dates, some unlucky players have experience of pre-2000 BC Oracle date.
Indeed, some games while reloading to see wonder dates maintain some constants, but other seem unpredictable.

Of course, I can't be authority at all on deity because I started practicing it on random settings just recently (that is why I can't excuse myself of that blunder which led me to my death...I knew the deity pressure...), but it looks like CoL is one of the strongest move to win fast that game.
You said without CoL, tech trading between the frenesy of tech whores would be a pain in the neck.

 

[Mylene]

@Tachy yip my Oracle was a lucky shot, you can say i played "do or die" during the BCs cos i really really dun like Epic speed, and would not have been bothered much if i'd lost early

Not getting gold in 1st ring was a big mistake, and i could not have complained if i'd failed the Oracle cos of not reaching writing fast enuf.
CoL is always nice, but my key tech here was oracling Aestethics.
That's because i did not have enuf food for running specialists (early, captured barb city helped as 2nd leg), but there was marble for TGL + NE.

Barb city was the 2nd thing i was really lucky with, i mentioned somewhere earlier that i did not notice barbs have no archery...
That city blocked Lizzy, and i took it with 1 axe after finally noticing it's only guarded by warris.

Later i was in no danger of not winning, Curis too dominant against peaceful AIs.
But early..lucky for sure.
Funny enuf, Oracle probably did me more harm than good lol..i got 2 GPs, 2nd with around ~9% chance..

 

[srad]

Mylene, can you let us know your tech order?

Agri, Mining, BW, Med, Priesth., Ah, (Pott.?), Writing? Pottery before Writing?

 

[Mylene]

iirc Agri - mining - BW - Med - PH - writing
No time fiddling around with AH or pottery with low commerce starts , also played challenger without cows ~~

I mentioned it in another post me thinks, AH is often a trap on Deity even with cows.
It's just too expensive for 1 good tile, aim for trading later instead.

 

[Yamps]

iirc Agri - mining - BW - Med - PH - writing
No time fiddling around with AH or pottery with low commerce starts , also played challenger without cows ~~

I mentioned it in another post me thinks, AH is often a trap on Deity even with cows.
It's just too expensive for 1 good tile, aim for trading later instead.

Good tip to consider this next time! Every option has a downside, here it's the risk to lose horses to the AI and there's also the risk to lose the Oracle.

I've opened with Agri->Mining->AH->Pottery->Writing->BW->Aesthetics

The reasoning with delayed BW is that the workers will be busy building farms, mines and pastures. They will be in scarce numbers early, settlers are more important. No early whip this way, but unimproved forest tiles aren't that bad compared to mines.

Nothing beats the Oracle of course if you get it. I got Aesthetics rather late and traded it only to one AI for Poly and Masonry. Did chop the GLib though and got a lot of cash from lost Parthenon to fund research. I had to reach CoL for more trades and got the most from a Philo bulb.

I wonder what's your Lib date...but I have to finish the game to read about that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

iirc Agri - mining - BW - Med - PH - writing
No time fiddling around with AH or pottery with low commerce starts , also played challenger without cows ~~

I mentioned it in another post me thinks, AH is often a trap on Deity even with cows.
It's just too expensive for 1 good tile, aim for trading later instead.

That's interesting. Does your 'PH' mean 'pottery'?

One thing puzzles me about your argument. In order to research writing, you have to first research either animal husbandry or pottery. AH obviously gives you the potential for horses, and - you didn't have the cows but for people playing contender, would certainly give you good growth/production spurt from that tile. Pottery gives you granaries and cottages, but I often find that early in the game neither is very useful, because production/expansion is a much higher priority. That seems to imply that AH is the best way to get to writing. Do you disagree with that reasoning? If so, why?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And should add - I'm enjoying reading these spoilers. I'm impressed by everyone who's posted, not just the few people who are comfortable on deity level, but also by those who can't normally manage deity (I'm in that number) but who were brave enough to give it a try and report their experiences.

 

[Mylene]

@dynamic PH is priesthood, and unlocks writing
Good point about revealing horsies, but would have put my oracle at even bigger risk ~~
Almost suicidal, i would consider my chances were maybe ~50%, with AH before...10%?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ah, yes, Mylene, you're right. A BtS change I'd forgotten about - priesthood now provides an alternate path to writing. That kinda knocks out my reasoning nicely

 

[pixiejmcc]

@Mylene (most posts in this thread are )

I'd never think to farm scientists so intensely but it looks like it was very effective for you. I think that's the key (well probably just one of the keys!) I was missing from my game.

I was wondering how you'd managed to bulb Liberalism. Turns out you need to avoid machinery then you're Great Scientist is unable to bulb either Printing Press or Optics (and as a result Astronomy). Though you will need to have already researched Compass (which can be a good trading tech in any case).

 

[Mylene]

Yep pixie, i teched compass, was very good for trades.
Avoiding machinery also yep, no biggie cos not needed for Curis (traded after using GS on Lib).

 

[srad]

Did a test run with settling the PH and ignoring AH. Oracle 1575; second city between gold and corn. Very promising, 5 cities, enough room for further ones.

Interestingly Liz settled her second city not beside cow, corn south of ivory... looks like the placement of the capital influences her decision.

This game turns out to be really informative ... (sometimes) things have to be learned the hard way

Ignoring AH, settling PH gives the crucial advantage ...

 

[srad]

iirc Agri - mining - BW - Med - PH - writing

Ups, I totally missed that Writing is possible without Pott. or AH.

 

[Jastrow]

Just submitted and abandoned game around 800 BC.

I have never played Deity before, and this actually started quite a bit better than I expected it to go, but my inexperience quickly got it to turn sour.

Looking through the tread, my game start appears to be similar to Mylene's in that I also founded on the PH, rushed to BW as quickly as possile, and settled near the Gold as my second city, AND managed to snag the Oracle (~1400BC, I got MC from it).

In 2600, Hasting was founded on the floodplain area between my capital and second city. I decided to take it with an Axe rush, at about 2000 BC and that went very well. Indeed, at the time I oracled MC, I though I had a chance of actually being competitive in this game (meaning beating the AI, NOT a competitive victory score for BOTM.)

My downfall however was that I did not take peace after taking Hastings. I decided to push on towards NOtthingham, and got my axes there just in time to run into some Chariots. A couple of wins by her Chariots, and Liz would not longer consider peace. My 6 cities had crushed my economy (I actually had one turn of strike) and I did not have archery yet. Her Charriots made mincedmeat out of my warrior + axeman defence, and I could not even bride her to peace by the end. I quit with 5 cities still standing, but with no prospect for stoping the war, or recovering the economy even if I did, I saw no point in continuing.

 

[pixiejmcc]

Just submitted and abandoned game around 800 BC.

I have never played Deity before, and this actually started quite a bit better than I expected it to go, but my inexperience quickly got it to turn sour.

Looking through the tread, my game start appears to be similar to Mylene's in that I also founded on the PH, rushed to BW as quickly as possile, and settled near the Gold as my second city, AND managed to snag the Oracle (~1400BC, I got MC from it).

In 2600, Hasting was founded on the floodplain area between my capital and second city. I decided to take it with an Axe rush, at about 2000 BC and that went very well. Indeed, at the time I oracled MC, I though I had a chance of actually being competitive in this game (meaning beating the AI, NOT a competitive victory score for BOTM.)

My downfall however was that I did not take peace after taking Hastings. I decided to push on towards NOtthingham, and got my axes there just in time to run into some Chariots. A couple of wins by her Chariots, and Liz would not longer consider peace. My 6 cities had crushed my economy (I actually had one turn of strike) and I did not have archery yet. Her Charriots made mincedmeat out of my warrior + axeman defence, and I could not even bride her to peace by the end. I quit with 5 cities still standing, but with no prospect for stoping the war, or recovering the economy even if I did, I saw no point in continuing.

A couple observations from a noob who certainly couldn't beat this (so take em or leave em). Oracling MC seems an odd choice as Justy isn't industrial and the Colossus wouldn't have been especially strong on this map. On deity oracling aesthetics is often strong because it really gets neglected by the AI and you can get trades out of it for a long time to come. Continuing on that path the same applies to Music (and to some extent Literature). Also Great Lib was pretty strong here because it wasn't a particularly high commerce start. And it always aids the race to Liberalism.

As you found, the problem with axe rushes on deity is that you are taking too many cities and have too many units too early. And more likely than not you are just not bringing in enough commerce to support that. And it probably goes without saying that its never a bad idea to throw a spear or two into your stack.

 

[neilmeister]

Settled in place.

Worker - Warrior - Settler (at pop 3) - Warrior - Settler (at pop 4) - Worker - Library - Settler

Settled Thesalonica to get Fish & Horses and insta trade route. Adrionapole settled on forest to get Ivory/Corn/Gold.

Liz founded Judaism and spread it to all of my cities, and to Willem. Hammy founded Hindu.

Teched Agr - AH - Mining - Writing - Alpha - Aesthetics - Construction - CoL

Traded Alpha for BW, Fish, Hunting, Pottery and IW.
Traded IW for Sailing
Traded Aesthetics for Maths, Poly, Archery & Masonry.
Traded Construction for Meditation, PH, HBR.
Traded CoL for Monarchy, Calender
Took Drama (along with other things) for peace with Liz in 5BC.

Researching CS now, 10 cities (4 built, 6 captured).

 

[Jastrow]

A couple observations from a noob who certainly couldn't beat this (so take em or leave em). Oracling MC seems an odd choice as Justy .....

As you found, the problem with axe rushes on deity is that you are taking too many cities and have too many units too early...

Agreed on MC... I assure you it was not the plan. Indeed, I intended to orgacle Asthetics as you suggest. I just could not get the prerequisites researched in time (writting was still some 10 turns away, and pushing oracle pass 1400 BC did not seem wise either.)

As for the rush... It was essentially forced by the position of Hastings, but I think it was actually correct. I could have taken peace immedietly after taking Hastings, and not doing so, IMO, was the biggest mistake in my game.

 

[jesusin]

High quality discussion going on here!
Thanks to all contributors. This is what makes a Deity BOTM worthwhile.

To all of you who have still not contributed to this discussion, please share your ideas or questions, no matter how "smart" (or otherwise) they may look. Questions make all of us think, most of the times even those who answer are learning new things.

Here I go with my share:

So..if creating an easier Deity game was intended, some added commerce near our Capi would have helped much more. When you see all good early game tiles like corn, copper mines or cows without rivers, you know you are in trouble..and teching AH before BW normally makes it worse.

I mentioned it in another post me thinks, AH is often a trap on Deity even with cows.
It's just too expensive for 1 good tile, aim for trading later instead.

My plan was exactly the opposite. I avoided BW and got it in trades much later. My initial research path was Agri-AH-Mining-Fishing- Pott-Wri
What do you all think about it?

Both plans share the idea of beelining and getting some techs later by means of tech trade, but... which plan is better?
My idea was to improve the Cows while avoiding the "useless" religious techs and the "expensive" BW tech.



Some background info: I was aiming for a peaceful cultural victory. This is quite relevant, as Oracle would have been a bad idea no matter which tech I could have gotten: spitting out another Settler is always more relevant.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender. Goal: fastest cultural victory.

Warrior Se found nothing. If it had seen a couple of pigs, for example, I would have moved to the PH and left the FPs for the future GPFarm there. As it was, I wouldn't abandon those FPs and I settled in place.

Production: Worker-Warrior-Settler at pop3.
Research: Agri-AH-Mining-Fishing (Fishing for fish+horses city, crucial for defense).


Lizzy's Settler took my intended East city, so I didn't explore further that way and I missed the Gold. Settling around the Gold would have been a huge move for fast early research. I missed that chance.

My first Settler went East, on Ivory, with corn, FP and culture-fought-over cows. This was good and bad at the same time. It put a limit to Lizzy's expansion but it was a slow city to develop, delaying my general REXing. Maybe I should have settled the next city first, getting faster game development, but that would have allowed her to move further East, reducing my settling space.


Losing a 85% chances fight put me in a difficult position. I had to sacrifice everything for security, lost some improvements, etc...

Following city had fish and cows in the inner ring, that's good for fast expansion!. It was intended to get Moai and be a Legendary city.

I inserted Hunting after Writing and before Aest, as I was in sore need of happiness. Oh that gold would have been sweet!

4th city got Marble. That was 1600BC and I was doing +6gpt at 0%. Oh that gold, oh my!

1000 BC Stats: 5 cities, 19 pop, 4workers, 8units(3Cha), 1 strategic resources, 1 luxury resources, 2 health resources, 0 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=48-36-28, 13 sustainable beakers per turn, 7 culture per turn, 6 great person points per turn, 200 gold, 2Lib, 2monu. 2 religions, 3/3 cottages used, 9 Techs: Wri, Pot, AH, no BW. 0 civs killed. 5 hours played.

My 2 neighbours got 2 different religions, but I managed to get them to Pleased just before settling space was all taken.

I took a barb city in the East, just North of Lizzy. She was stupid enough to settle close to her borders, so I could take the great GPFarm site North with fish, clams and bananas.

When I got Aesth I could trade for Maths, BW, Poly, Medi, Sail...
Academy 485BC.
New barb city taken in the far North, pigs, fish, rice.

Parthenon in capital was easy with 5 chops.
Settled my 8th and last city with Clanms and Horses North.

My second GS bulbed Philo and that got me my 3rd religion. Got Moai at last. Trading for Currency got me out of my economic misery.

1AD Stats: 8 cities, 35 pop, 8workers, 11units (1Axe), 3strategic resources, 4luxury resources, 6health resources, 2 great persons, 1 world wonders, 1 national wonders, food/production/commerce=112-50-120, 58 sustainable beakers per turn, 46 useful culture per turn, 7 great person points per turn, 100 gold. 3 religions. 6/9 cottages used, 22 Techs: almost Music, no CoL, no MC, Curr, IW, Philo, Drama. 0 civs killed. 10,5 hours played. 11rel*city, 0temples, 0cath