Bottleneck Techs

I have played Endless Legend and understand what you are getting at but in this mod it just makes it too hard to balance.

Also the way the technologies work in the engine mean you have to have a tree (or sometimes many trees) which means that you can't go for a number of techs instead.

Each tech has an Era tag and when you study the first tech with a new Era tag value you are said to be in the new Era.

Edit naturally I may have figured out a way to do something similar but it still wont work with this mod. The techs are designed to build on each other and the chief modders want as few branches as possible
 
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Yes, maybe it's not technicaly possible because it's dependent of CiV code structure.
But my idea don't concern a global number of tech. It's a number of tech PER eras.
Example : 68 PREHISTORIC techs are needed to unlock Ancient.
Then 66 ancient techs are needed to unlock next era.
It don't break tree structure too.

As I'm playing, I'm looking at what I do: i do tech "rushs". I rushed Tribalism, then now I rush next era.
Choices I'm making are not really importants (except sometimes order) because anyways, these techs need to be research.
With a dual system (techs needed, and additionnal free techs), research isn't so systematic, as player, I need then to carefuly choose each tech I will get. Maybe I can choose first a tech not needed for next era instead of an obligatory techs. I have to think twice before to make any choice.

It's why I prefer Endless Space 2 than Master of Orion remake. More freedom in the path and tech choice. As for others parts of the game, I could say these 2 games are both excellents, and get an very good ergonomy.
 
Too much work, technically difficult to achieve, and strange things will occur like inventing computers without having electricity (just an example, but similar strangeness will be difficult to avoid.). Better to improve what we got, a tech tree system that most civ players love, than to waste time and effort embarking on such a project.

This is just my opinion, but I believe the rest of the team is likeminded here.
 
As I'm playing, I'm looking at what I do: i do tech "rushs". I rushed Tribalism, then now I rush next era.

If you play with the Option Beeline Sting you will pay a bit more in research time by skipping too many techs in an era to get to a new one.

And I agree with Toffer.

It's alright for new players to voice their ideas though. Don't want you Enchanteur to feel restricted. But you do need to realize this mod is over 9 years old now. And many "ideas" we've seen before. So if we say No it's not being arbitrary but just that we've seen and done that before.
 
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It's alright for new players to voice their ideas though. Don't want you Enchanteur to feel restricted. But you do need to realize this mod is over 9 years old now. And many "ideas" we've seen before. So if we say No it's not being arbitrary but just that we've seen and done that before.

Enchanteur - as Jo. says - keep on posting. Do not take a seemingly rejection as a negative. We have all been there in our initial posts. Sometimes in our current one's. :)
 
The game is still very good like it is. The tech tree is so big than there is many choices about what to priorize. In my current game, I get some tech 5 or 6 panels below. But I will have to research it later.
So I don't complains ! For my idea, I would need to look at CiV code and see how it work. It's a lot to learn to mod a game. I don't really have time for this currently. And even I would like to mod, I have already some big tasks to do on EL. I'm not lazy, but sometimes, I've have enough to do that, and prefer to just play. I need to be in the good mood. ;)
 
May seem like a social justice warrior, but the Medieval and Renaissance eras are not actually a thing nor is classical for that matter.

All these eras spin around the collapse of the roman empire and the following eras and bounce back of the Europeans.
In short, the classical era is the good old times of Europeans (the iron age after the bronze age colapse, again another somewhat localized event), the Medieval era is the bad times of europeans and the reinsurance is the new good times, remembering the old good times.

This is not something that is representative for a sandbox civ game, as far as I can tell, Feudalism is not and advanced technology coming after the classical architecture, but rather a product of descentralization and societal stratification.
China did not have a medieval and a Renaissance era, for all intents and purposes they jumped from classical to pre-modern era in the 18-19th centuries, and I think it's a good example to look at.



To my shame I don't have much of a structured thought of how this, but I would see it as Iron Age (Classical) -> Steel (Pre-modern) -> Steam Age (Industrial), where some of the medieval techs are in the classical era, others are cut, while the Renaissance techs go in the pre-modern era or get cut.



The next step would be to have tech much more connected to population density, as this was the main drive of technology. People don't invent stuff by just laying around (sometimes they do, but rarely)), they need to be motivated, generally by impending misery especially in the old times. (Look at the amazonian tribes, they are in tune with the forest they live in, with this perfect equilibrium, they do not need to innovate, at all)


So I would suggest climate cycles, these are macro long time modifiers that basically give more food and changed terrain types to fertile tiles for hundred of years as well as lower the temperature and revert terrains to more barren terrain types.
If done right we should see civs or, at least, areas of civs rising or dipping in pop creating either eras of prosperity and high population density
High pop density would yield, besides deseases and crime, a tech multiplier, while low density and ruralisation of the civ would result in a negative multiplier to the point where it could stop for a couple of decades/centuries as well as famine and social conflict that could break apart nations.


What do you think about this?
 
To my shame I don't have much of a structured thought of how this, but I would see it as Iron Age (Classical) -> Steel (Pre-modern) -> Steam Age (Industrial), where some of the medieval techs are in the classical era, others are cut, while the Renaissance techs go in the pre-modern era or get cut.

If I was designing C2C from scratch, I would probably do it that way. But the Medieval and Renaissance eras are well developed now and it would be very challenging to do the necessary surgery to make that work. I was able to rearrange the future eras because there wasn't as much development already invested there and the need for change was much more obvious. I had also pushed for inserting a new Neolithic Era between Prehistoric (which would have been renamed Paleolithic) and Ancient, but gave up for the same reason.

So I would suggest climate cycles, these are macro long time modifiers that basically give more food and changed terrain types to fertile tiles for hundred of years as well as lower the temperature and revert terrains to more barren terrain types.

I like this idea. I think we've had some discussions before on prehistoric climate change (and it might also be good to have a mechanism that could be applied to contemporary climate change), but that would also be a programming challenge.

If you have the time, ability, and inclination to try to program some of this stuff, that would greatly improve the likelihood that we could consider the ideas for inclusion.
 
Yeah basically we have built the mod upon not only the base game but the mods that came before ...

Civ4
- Ancient
- Classical
- Medieval
- Renaissance
- Industrial
- Modern
- Future

RoM/AND
- Transhuman

Prehistoric NWA
- Prehistoric

AtoM
- Galactic

Space Mod
- Information
- Nanotech
- Cosmic
- Transcendent

Its a lot harder to undo all that. But yeah if we had started from scratch perhaps the eras would be much different.
 
It's understandable, I have little XP with moding, it would surely be a huge undertaking with not that much of a gain given the fact that most people learned history this way are itching to play the clasic eras.

I would propose a different approach then:

If we have this narrative railroading, why not support it? with climate change and desasters!

Game starts in prehystoric age with an ice age and slowly worms up until bronze age (deserts are more humid and lively while the megafauna persists, it would be really awesome if we could have shoreline modification possible, so that land bridges are possible and some coastal towns will be destroyed, that would be awesome!)
At the end of the bronze age, another cold age starts along with increased barbarian spawns and vulcanic erruptions, this should represent the bronze age collapse. (this should be somewhat short but very powerfull making sure people starve and societal collapse happens, this should be followed by a nice warm period)
At the end of the classical era, another cold age should start along with barbarian spawns and diseases allong with increased revolt risk (again this should affect larger empires mostly and should represent the collapse of the Roman empire and ensuing dark ages, it should be succeeded by a very nice worm period )
At the end of medieval age, the last cold era should emerge along with the black plague
In latter era pollution should do the trick and climate cycles should be somewhat random but should be able to affect pops as well

Besides this there should be major random disasters:
Asteroid impact and supervulcano erruption comes to mind, these should be able to rase nations in some cases and usher virulend short ice ages that would decimate the population.

All these events, while railroaded would serve to support the current tech tree as well as creating a ciclicity to the game that would kill of the boredom of continuous expansion.

Also bottlenecking the tech would help triggering these events
 
(Look at the amazonian tribes, they are in tune with the forest they live in, with this perfect equilibrium, they do not need to innovate, at all)
I thought that this idea had been debunked long ago. That the latest thinking was along the lines
  • slash and burn increases long term fertility of the jungle because of all the burnt wood that accumulates in the soil and captures nutrients for plant use.
  • planting food based plants, especially tree and vine based ones provide long term food oasis
  • after doing that for a couple of generations maintenance of these oasis is all that is needed with perhaps new ones added now and then
So what they have is an engineered environment suitable for their lifestyle.

Besides this there should be major random disasters:
Asteroid impact and supervulcano erruption comes to mind, these should be able to rase nations in some cases and usher virulend short ice ages that would decimate the population.

People don't like major random disasters. They don't like minor random disasters which is why the volcano in vanilla BtS does not affect any cities even when it happens next to one.

However C2C does have a project on the back burner, called Bad Karma which would be optional and would have all sorts of things like this in it. Each would also be optional.
 
I thought that this idea had been debunked long ago. That the latest thinking was along the lines
  • slash and burn increases long term fertility of the jungle because of all the burnt wood that accumulates in the soil and captures nutrients for plant use.
  • planting food based plants, especially tree and vine based ones provide long term food oasis
  • after doing that for a couple of generations maintenance of these oasis is all that is needed with perhaps new ones added now and then
So what they have is an engineered environment suitable for their lifestyle.

Yep, that's pretty much it, however, the population stays pretty much the same, not putting pressure and creating conflict, the foundation of innovation
 
While I realise it will probably be a long time before any changes to the current era system are considered, since the subject has been raised I feel I might as well relay some of my thinking on the matter;

I think there is no need to insert a new Neolithic Era between Prehistoric/Paleolithic and Ancient- instead, I think much of what is currently Ancient (say, x19-x27) should be relabeled Neolithic, and the remainder of Ancient merged with Classical into a new era called Ancient, which would represent (on our Old World, obviously even on an Earth map things could go radically differently; the important thing is not the time span, but the level of "technology") the time between the invention of writing and bronze metallurgy and the fall of the Western Roman Empire (c. 3000 BC-c. 500 AD). Other Earth civilizations I would consider to be at that level would include (but certainly not be limited to) the Mesoamerican and Inca civilizations, China from the Xia through Han dynasties, India from the Indus Valley Civilization through the Gupta Empire, and Japan from the Yayoi through Heian periods.

I would disagree with the notion of dropping Medieval and Renaissance (and for that matter, with the notion that real-life Classical antiquity was a time of uniform progress and the Middle Ages a time of superstition, stagnation and backwardness, but that's another discussion); historians today still classify Old World civilizations as "Postclassical" (their term for medieval; why it's called postclassical when their universal system lacks a classical, I don't know), and it's hardly as if no technological or social developments happened in China between the Qin and Ming dynasties. One example would be that I heard that China was that at some point (I think it was during the Tang dynasty) on the verge of a proto-industrial revolution that was actually shut down by the Emperor, fearing the effect of widespread ownership of weapons on his rule).

Furthermore, many of the ideas found in Industrial are built upon Renaissance technologies and social capital; the scientific method, Newtonian physics and calculus being a few examples. Furthermore, warfare in this period was very much distinct from medieval and post-Napoleonic warfare; the former used iron and sometimes steel melee weaponry as the primary weapon of choice for both grunts and elites of various kinds, and had a much heavier emphasis on armour, and the latter radically altered warfare altogether by bringing an end to thousands of years of open field warfare through artillery and the machine gun.

My current thinking (which is oriented around constructing an era plan that is as non-culturally specific as possible and gives equal playtime to each era (though that's a matter of turns aimed for per era rather than what eras go in) is this;

  • Paleolithic Era (replaces Prehistoric in its entirety, and corresponds in our timeline (OTL) with humanity at any point prior to at least 10,000 BC. I would also consider the Khoisan bushmen and Australian aborigines to have been at this level prior to European contact.)
  • Neolithic Era (as mentioned above, replaces x19-x27, and corresponds in OTL with 10,000-3000 BC (Egypt, India, Mesopotamia, the Levant, and Crete), 2000 BC (China), 1500 BC (Greece), 800 BC (the rest of Europe), and 1500 BC (the Americas). I would also consider the tribal natives of the Americas (be they Inuit, First Nations, Native American, Carib, Amazonian etc.) to be at this level, outside of the Mound Builders/Mississippi culture and perhaps some particularly advanced tribal nations such as the Iroquois, as well as most indigenous peoples such as the Zulu, the Maori, Papuans and many (though not all) other Polynesians and so forth)
  • Ancient Era (discussed above, so I won't repeat it)
  • Postclassical Era (discussed above, so I won't repeat it)
  • Early Modern Era (replaces Renaissance in its entirety, at this point I'll only note European events since it seems to be that all other civilizations have basically acquired tech from this era from Europe, rather than developing it independently. It would start with the spread of the Renaissance beyond Italy (and its further development within), the Reformation, the discovery of the New World, the invention of the non-cannon handheld gunpowder weaponry, and the invention of the printing press.)
  • Late Modern Era (replaces Industrial in its entirety; from either the beginning of the Age of Revolution with the American and French Revolutions or the Congress of Vienna until either the death of Queen Victoria or the outbreak of WWI.)
  • [Name undecided, at least one of these could be Early Contemporary or something along those lines.] (replaces x71-74 (obviously, expansion would be needed to make this into a fully fledged era), represents the time between the death of Queen Victoria or outbreak of WWI until the beginning of the Roaring Twenties (1925).)
  • [Name undecided, at least one of these could be Early Contemporary or something along those lines.] (replaces x75-76 (see above), represents the time between the beginning of the Roaring Twenties and the end of World War II, foundation of the United Nations and beginning of the Cold War.
  • Middle Contemporary/Atomic Era (Cold War)
  • Late Contemporary/Information Era (End of the Cold War and invention of the Internet until (fairly arbitrarily) around 2050
I have a different approach to the future than pepper2000, one which basically divides it in to the Near Future Era (2050-2200, futuristic but still confined to Earth and maybe the Moon and Mars), and the Far Future Era (2200-3000, when the human race, to apocryphically quote former US Vice President Dan Quayle, begins to enter the Solar System and eventually expands to the local stellar neighbourhood. However, I don't think there's any chance of that ever being the mod's scheme outside of my modmod.

I post this mainly for Misanthropia's benefit, as I realize it will be a long time before the question of eras becomes feasible to raise again, and I've made the other team members aware of my ideas several times before.
 
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So I am not sure if I am getting back to modding C2C but if I do i want to deal with my 2 favorite parts; buildings and techs. Thus I am making this topic about "bottleneck techs" which I think have shown their usefulness in the past. Specifically "Sedentary Lifestyle" and "Classical Lifestyle". I would like to make one for each era. Thus adding ...

- Medieval Lifestyle
- Renaissance Lifestyle
- Industrial Lifestyle
- Modern Lifestyle
- Transhuman Lifestyle
- Galactic Lifestyle

These are not the best names but they will serve their purpose. These "bottlenecks" are made so players cannot speed through an era without getting the majority of the techs. I really want to slow down the eras so the players have to play in them longer.

I have not worked out what the requirements for each one would be nor which techs would now require it. Thus I open the topic to you guys before anything is changed or even planned.

What do you think?

I find this are awesome names ! Why shouldn´t it be a lifestyle ? When I see your tech tree would you guys every be able to finish this mod ? Would I live so long to play the complete game ever ? :D So much eras are not in this game. Why have Sid Meyer don´t hire you to create civ 5 and 6 ? I hate it in civ 5 that you can have only one unit on a tile and city, that makes the game much more boring and in civ 6 should a whole citytile be for a world wonder ? This sucks. Civ 4 was the best game that was every programmed in the civilizationsessions and with your mod it is the brilliatest game ever was programmed by human beiings on this planet ! Since your mod this game is my absolute favorite game and I am addicted to it ! :)
 
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