Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Modern Lifestyle is now put in. Thus locking down more eras. I don't have any plans at the moment for and Information Era gateway tech. But I am happy with the progress so far.
Bottleneck Techs
- Thread starter Hydromancerx
- Start date
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Instead for just jumping the gun why not ask DH? Might just be the proper thing to do you know.
EDIT: Just checked a couple religions and same x grid techs. They have same cost now. Not sure who changed it from the way it was in v36 where the cost was greater. Or even when it was changed. But again why not ask DH?
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm asking everyone when I post it in the forum as I assume all of us at least try to read everything posted on the forum, whether we have comment to offer or not.
The tech costs were all re-evaluated since then, and need further re-evaluation again but I must wait until the x-grid is stable so...
This needs to be addressed fairly soon at least. But I think you understand that. So I'm patient.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Umm sure. Anyway, since you've decided to revamp the tech modifiers and the techtree is undergoing update you might as well split Preh Era like you wanted too. Don't see a reason not to now.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm not convinced I really want to. It would complicate things.
I wanted the split because of the rather long length of the Prehistoric age, and because there are 2-3 layers of unit upgrades within the prehistoric, depending on what kind of unit line we're talking about, which would be nice to space out better. But as I looked at the tree, to split it would force us to dramatically reposition 3 or 4 techs and while that may be something that should be done anyhow, it's hard to currently see how to do it gracefully. Making that matter a greater struggle is the fact that it would put a huge amount of the techs before where we should split it up into the second half and we'd have to somehow find a way to push more of the second half backwards into the first portion.
I don't relish the idea of that much chaos in adjusting it all.
Plus, it would also force me to change the merge/split limitations so it's not just based on era, and I'm not sure it's good for education either.
In summary, although this first opening chapter of the mod is unusually long, it does encapsulate half the name of the mod and the problems trying to split it would create seem like too great a headache. However, a split in the way it's managed in the dating could make sense if we're starting much earlier.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Having a closer look there is no real good spot to split it at. I recomend we just leave the prehistoric era as it is.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Of course you all would change your minds...........
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
We already had. There was a reason we stopped trying to get it to happen. Multiple reasons really.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Praetyre
King
While I realize I'm A: Late to the party and B: Not a team member, I figure I might as well give my two cents on this issue (not that I can, given New Zealand lacks a circulating one cent coin 
):
I think that while I understand the gameplay rationale for splitting Prehistoric, the historical rationale is weak, even if we push the start date back to 200,000 BC (thus making 50,000 BC the most obvious choice, though players might be further confused by the first era being Middle Paleolithic and the second Upper Paleolithic), the main differences, as I've mentioned elsewhere, between the Middle and Upper Paleolithic are the complexity of the tools used (which is also the difference between Lower and Middle Paleolithic, for that matter, aside from fire (controlled and firemaking) and different hominid species that is) and behavioral modernity, and even very early techs in C2C basically presuppose the latter (and I'm inclined to think the latter originated much, much earlier than is currently though, for reasons I've outlined elsewhere).
Granted, you could make an argument (one with some basis perhaps in the theory of human origins mentioned in my more recent posts in the timelines, dates & eras thread) that the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens (why was the last sapiens removed from the unit name, incidentally? Other subspecies include Homo sapiens idaltu, and, more significantly, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.) would have had to "relearn" a lot of the knowledge their forebears possessed.
I am, however, quite sympathetic to Thunderbrd's desire to keep the number of unit upgrades per era as limited as possible.
):I think that while I understand the gameplay rationale for splitting Prehistoric, the historical rationale is weak, even if we push the start date back to 200,000 BC (thus making 50,000 BC the most obvious choice, though players might be further confused by the first era being Middle Paleolithic and the second Upper Paleolithic), the main differences, as I've mentioned elsewhere, between the Middle and Upper Paleolithic are the complexity of the tools used (which is also the difference between Lower and Middle Paleolithic, for that matter, aside from fire (controlled and firemaking) and different hominid species that is) and behavioral modernity, and even very early techs in C2C basically presuppose the latter (and I'm inclined to think the latter originated much, much earlier than is currently though, for reasons I've outlined elsewhere).
Granted, you could make an argument (one with some basis perhaps in the theory of human origins mentioned in my more recent posts in the timelines, dates & eras thread) that the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens (why was the last sapiens removed from the unit name, incidentally? Other subspecies include Homo sapiens idaltu, and, more significantly, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.) would have had to "relearn" a lot of the knowledge their forebears possessed.
I am, however, quite sympathetic to Thunderbrd's desire to keep the number of unit upgrades per era as limited as possible.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I consider you a team member... perhaps an honorary one in a status like Pluto among the planets, but your modding has left an influence on the structure of the mod and on some of the thinking implemented in it.
I certainly see historic and rational reasons to split the prehistoric but from the game design side, it would be a rough ride of restructuring.
@Joseph... I know you're frustrated about being steamrolled or having your work feel tossed aside, BUT even though we've gotta change some things about game progress and HOW we derive balance in that area, your work is not a waste. You had things dialed in to a point that gives us a host of strong examples of the numbers we are always trying to aim for and how to get it there. Thanks to the SVN working the way it does, we can easily get comparisons from what we had when it was nearly perfect here and quickly catch up to those examples. So you've exposed the goalposts and how it was reached and I don't think that's being cast aside at all but being held as the model to recreate now that we have to rework our way back after some core calculation mechanism adjustments. Thank you for your restraint in expressing these frustrations. I actually do totally understand... and from direct experience as, if you recall, I've also completely worked over the gamespeeds only to have the lifespan of my adjustments be fairly short. I was actually the one that set us to start at 50k BC to start with... I think we had been starting at 12k BC beforehand. Again, all your hard work (and it was significant, I know!) is NOT a waste!
If you and I were better at discussing math, I would try to get in deeper with reasonings but I know neither of us is all that great at expressing ourselves in this department, even if we do have very legitimate insights. I have a lot of faith in both you and Toffer and so between your arguments, I've simply had to lean towards those that make more sense to me and connect. But that doesn't mean I don't think you're being illogical either... just more willing to make a flaw a benefit because you're used to working with that flaw. And I can also understand you not wanting everything to get thrown into chaos after so much balance work. Again, though, it's quickly going to be righted and that's ONLY because you've shown what the standards need to be. I hope that makes sense. Despite having to make adjustments to the approach, we don't want to change the end results.
And yeah, just not being willing to disrupt things was not the ONLY reason for us to be reluctant to divide the Prehistoric. There are other challenges such a project represents that put the whole concept into question as to whether it is wise to go forward there. I was growing more reluctant the more I looked at it and I was happy to have the disruption avoidance argument come up as a good reason to hold it off. I think since then, Hydro has seen a number of the things I was seeing that was causing my reluctance to grow as well.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Praetyre seriously you will always be a C2C team member to us.
Praetyre
King
Aww, thanks. 
Reason I didn't think of myself as one is that Joseph wasn't considered one until quite recently, and he's contributed a lot more to the mod than I (though given I've been on-and-off away from watching C2C, maybe I'm wrong on this).
Reason I didn't think of myself as one is that Joseph wasn't considered one until quite recently, and he's contributed a lot more to the mod than I (though given I've been on-and-off away from watching C2C, maybe I'm wrong on this).
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Once a teammember, always a teammember 
Praetyre
King
Well, not to drag this thread too off-topic, but if I'm on the team, can I be made Grand Secretary (or whatever) of music? I'm currently about a third of the way through (800 tracks catalogued, although not all of them will be publicly released) my music project with a RL friend, and whatever shape the eras end up taking in C2C, I'll have a personal thematic vision to apply to them as far as music is concerned.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I would not mind some expansion there.
You'll have to make sure it checks out with StrategyOnly though. He's got some ground rules on that. Like... no lyrics at all.
Praetyre
King
Hah! A man after my own heart. 
My idea is to initially just shuffle around techs from existing-C2C and put them in my preferred place. This would include some techs which are in base Civ IV/Warlords/BTS but don't see use in C2C any longer. (Would this require the repair of AIAndy's "[EraName]New" script for me to add them in or would it still recognise the music even if it wasn't in C2C's files?) One of my rules, aside from "no lyrics in anything but a foreign language or hard-to-make-out ones, and even then keep it their number low excepting the religious chant ones", is that no track should be used twice (i.e. in more than one era). This is part of my formula for keeping the eras thematically unique, though I'll understand if others are fond enough of a track to want to see it across multiple eras.
My idea is to initially just shuffle around techs from existing-C2C and put them in my preferred place. This would include some techs which are in base Civ IV/Warlords/BTS but don't see use in C2C any longer. (Would this require the repair of AIAndy's "[EraName]New" script for me to add them in or would it still recognise the music even if it wasn't in C2C's files?) One of my rules, aside from "no lyrics in anything but a foreign language or hard-to-make-out ones, and even then keep it their number low excepting the religious chant ones", is that no track should be used twice (i.e. in more than one era). This is part of my formula for keeping the eras thematically unique, though I'll understand if others are fond enough of a track to want to see it across multiple eras.
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Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I don't see why not. Audio in general is an area we are always lacking modders for.
EDIT.
Reading the above posts - this now seems out of date but here goes.
Throwing in my 2 pence (what are cents.
)
If a split was made Tribalism would seem to me a logical tech.
Prior to that you are wandering around the city being the central point of your territory only - not a city.
At tribalism you can split into groups. Each group or Tribe have their own central (city) area to roam from.
Reading the above posts - this now seems out of date but here goes.
Throwing in my 2 pence (what are cents.
)If a split was made Tribalism would seem to me a logical tech.
Prior to that you are wandering around the city being the central point of your territory only - not a city.
At tribalism you can split into groups. Each group or Tribe have their own central (city) area to roam from.
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