Bottleneck Techs

Hydromancerx

C2C Modder
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So I am not sure if I am getting back to modding C2C but if I do i want to deal with my 2 favorite parts; buildings and techs. Thus I am making this topic about "bottleneck techs" which I think have shown their usefulness in the past. Specifically "Sedentary Lifestyle" and "Classical Lifestyle". I would like to make one for each era. Thus adding ...

- Medieval Lifestyle
- Renaissance Lifestyle
- Industrial Lifestyle
- Modern Lifestyle
- Transhuman Lifestyle
- Galactic Lifestyle

These are not the best names but they will serve their purpose. These "bottlenecks" are made so players cannot speed through an era without getting the majority of the techs. I really want to slow down the eras so the players have to play in them longer.

I have not worked out what the requirements for each one would be nor which techs would now require it. Thus I open the topic to you guys before anything is changed or even planned.

What do you think?
 
There is a terrible short cut thru Classical to Medieval. The path to Feudalism leaves over 60% of Classical left unresearched. Really really bad.

And some of the late Classical should be in early Med as well. Medieval has the least # of techs of any Era followed by Galactic. Transhuman on the other hand is a Monster in it's size, 190 techs. Almost double the size of Preh (~100) and is right at double vs Ancient (90), Ind (91) and Modern (92).

JosEPh
 
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Ok a proposal ...

Medieval Lifestyle
Req Techs: Smithing AND Paved Roads AND Geocenterism AND Vasslage

Altered Techs ...

Theology
Req Techs: Code of Laws AND Meditation AND Musical Notation AND Medieval Lifestyle

Armor Crafting

Req Tech: Medieval Lifestyle

Rudder

Req Tech: Medieval Lifestyle

Feudalism
Req Tech: Code of Laws AND Medieval Lifestyle

Fire Brigades

Req Tech: Sanitation AND Medieval Lifestyle

Civil Service
Req Tech: Meritocracy AND Sanitation AND Medieval Lifestyle

Engineering

Req Tech: Carnal Systems AND Medieval Lifestyle

Agricultural Engineering
Req Tech: Forestry AND Feudalism

Guilds
Req Tech: Feudalism AND Insurance

What ya think?

Someone should double check these too.
 
I agree that we should have a bottleneck tech for each era. It can be extremely helpful for placing certain per/era building upgrades like we have with education levels and such and it sure does make things easier to arrange the era afterwards. I like the way the Ancient and Classical eras play out once you enter them. I'm also of the opinion that a free tech at each may be nice, particularly if the tech shuts down a number of potential strong benefits that you may have had throughout the era, like Sedentary Lifestyle shuts down some of the power-wonders of the Prehistoric.

I also think that we need MORE techs, like almost twice as many, for the Medieval, and that some of the late Classical techs should actually be medieval techs. I think it needs some deeper review. I'd put it in a spreadsheet myself for deeper structure analysis.

If you can find excuses to split up a tech in this era that has such a shy tech count, do it!
 
If you can find excuses to split up a tech in this era that has such a shy tech count, do it!

I was trying to be conservative with adding techs. Believe me, there are a lot of techs across the board I would like to add if you guys want me to propose them. i was not sure if you guys thought there were too many already.

I also think some techs need to be adjusted a little. Not so much the Prehistoric or Transhuman but the other eras.
 
Wait so you agree with me Joe that a bottleneck tech would be good for the beginning if the Medieval era? Possibly moving some late classical into the medieval era too?

Yes I agree with you. DH has also proposed this as well.

And as T-brd stated the late Classical and all of Med Era is a mess. And I would go so far as to say Early Ren should be in the mix too.

That short cut path thru Class Era is a bad bad thing. It really screws up warfare for this time frame. Late Classical needs to lose about 10 techs to Med Era. And late Ancient Era needs a few of it's tech put into Classical.

If we can get a consensus and just fix these 3 Eras it would greatly improve the mod imhpo.

JosEPh
 
For my modmod, I once envisioned that Cosmic Perspective would be a bottleneck for the Galactic Era. I eventually gave up on that idea because it didn't fit with other things I was trying to do.

I'll take the dissenting view if I may. In other threads we've been having the discussion about changing the era structure, and though it seems to be widely agreed that changes are needed (e.g. Transhuman Era way too long), though there's no consensus on how to do that. My fear is that adding this structure to the tree is yet another way that we lock in the present era structure.

A couple other things to think about.
1) I agree that we need to solve this beeline issue. Can we do it without creating these start-of-era bottleneck techs? The Transhuman Era, although very long, is well-structured in that it prevents the player from running too far ahead on one line of techs without developing the others.
2) What content will go with these new techs? For instance, are there any units or buildings that naturally should have Medieval Lifestyle as a prereq?
3) If we do go with this system, let's be more creative with the tech names. The Ancient Era starts with Sedentary Lifestyle, which is much more descriptive and meaningful than "Ancient Lifestyle" would be.
4) Maybe existing techs could be employed for this purpose. We're not far from having Steam Engine be the only entry-level Industrial tech, for instance.
 
I disagree with almost everything said on this since Hydro came back. Except that there are techs in the wrong eras, that I agree with.

I disagree that bee-lining should be banned. I am not convinced that bottleneck techs are a good solution to the perceived problem. I am not even convinced that being able to get to the Medieval Era without studying 60% of the Classical Era tech is a problem at all.
 
I am not even convinced that being able to get to the Medieval Era without studying 60% of the Classical Era tech is a problem at all.

Well you should be. Because it screws the whole research rate for each game speed. If the mod only had Snail game speed and everyone was a builder player then no it's not a problem. But for anyone who wants a different GS or to play a war monger or even a mix of builder/warrior it's messed up. It creates too big of a gap between player and AI as well on any difficulty level used.

All this can be fixed by changing some prereq tech requirements though.

And why the sudden change on the starting era tech when you created the one for Classical? That I don't understand at all. Not the tech but your change of position is what I don't get.

JosEPh
 
It's a bit funny to think that in vanilla BTS, you could beeline for Theology and skip the Classical Era completely.
 
It's a bit funny to think that in vanilla BTS, you could beeline for Theology and skip the Classical Era completely.

True. Of course we are comparing BtS' tech tree vs C2C's. Bit of a difference wouldn't you say.

And I've invested too much effort into letting things like that screw up C2C research progressions. As it is now there is too much complaint and too many posters saying how easy it is to get ahead in the tech tree. Even after what I did in this area coupled with game speed choices.

JosEPh
 
*chuckles* Finally agree on something with Joe and now DH disagrees. This is why the mod is so good since everyone has a different perceptive on the mod.

But in those case I think bottleneck techs are good for the mod. I also have no problem in helping plan a better middle game tech line. This was something that was never completely finished. While say the Prehistoric and Transhuman eras need less attention.
 
*chuckles* Finally agree on something with Joe and now DH disagrees. This is why the mod is so good since everyone has a different perceptive on the mod.
I disagree with almost everything said on this since Hydro came back. Except that there are techs in the wrong eras, that I agree with.

I disagree that bee-lining should be banned. I am not convinced that bottleneck techs are a good solution to the perceived problem. I am not even convinced that being able to get to the Medieval Era without studying 60% of the Classical Era tech is a problem at all.
I mostly agree with DH.
Although I can see how a bottleneck tech can simplify some logic concerning when something should become available in relation to other stuff.
 
Well you should be. Because it screws the whole research rate for each game speed. If the mod only had Snail game speed and everyone was a builder player then no it's not a problem. But for anyone who wants a different GS or to play a war monger or even a mix of builder/warrior it's messed up. It creates too big of a gap between player and AI as well on any difficulty level used.

All this can be fixed by changing some prereq tech requirements though.

And why the sudden change on the starting era tech when you created the one for Classical? That I don't understand at all. Not the tech but your change of position is what I don't get.

JosEPh
I did not add any bottleneck techs, twernt me g'vnor. I am all for dead end techs and dead end branches full of techs. I am against techs that make no sense to you nation being mandatory eg Camel Domestication when you don't know what a camel or llama is.

I thought once you reached an new era the cost of techs only went up for you only. This means that if you get to Medieval all those Classic era techs you missed would now cost you more to learn that the AI which hadn't reached Medieval. Which would mean they would catch up better.
 
Lots and lots of discussion here, as there usually is with this topic!
I was trying to be conservative with adding techs. Believe me, there are a lot of techs across the board I would like to add if you guys want me to propose them. i was not sure if you guys thought there were too many already.
Mostly we're just saying between late classical and early rennaissance. I wouldn't mind some stretching out in the earliest phases of the prehistoric so that we stretch out the space between first and second generation units. That's a bit of a tough spot at the moment.

My fear is that adding this structure to the tree is yet another way that we lock in the present era structure.
We do need to lock in the era structure at some point though because a lot of things do rely on era shifts and era counts. Merges and splits are currently limited by how many eras you've unlocked. Education demands go up by one per population per era and the maximum benefits/penalties for education increase per era. Era is a neat way of totalling a general sense of development and overall civilization knowledge. There is generally a goal of one upgrade per unit upgrade path per era (with the exception of the first and second generation unit upgrades in the first portion of the game and some other individual exceptions all over the place.) If we add too many eras, or have them be too imbalanced in tech counts, we start to suffer from rate of improvement and growth of challenges staging imbalances. Yes, the transhuman is too long and it's probably necessary to stretch the prehistoric further into two distinct ages at some point (along with an adjustment to the starting date to 200k BC), and the medieval is too short. Many of the other ideas being thrown around about restructuring the eras are things I'm dubious about.

1) I agree that we need to solve this beeline issue. Can we do it without creating these start-of-era bottleneck techs? The Transhuman Era, although very long, is well-structured in that it prevents the player from running too far ahead on one line of techs without developing the others.
This helps but it's not always appropriate to demand one tech require another when there is no real cause for it rationally. Transhuman does naturally rationally demand one tech build on another due to the nature of high-technological progress. At lower ends, a greater 'imbalance' can naturally take place. The Native American Plains Indians, for example, did quite well for never developing Mining.

2) What content will go with these new techs? For instance, are there any units or buildings that naturally should have Medieval Lifestyle as a prereq?
Immediately, the most obvious to me is to set education demands higher and the higher potential education levels opening up here. Anything else is just a matter of other generic 'by era' adjustments. One unstated benefit would obviously be the ability to merge and split another level if you're on Size Matters. A free tech for first to achieve is a good standard, as is some strong obsoletions of powerful but short term wonder benefits graspable throughout the era preceding it. Sedentary Lifestyle establishes a lot of neat strategic reasons to go for and to NOT go for it quickly.

3) If we do go with this system, let's be more creative with the tech names. The Ancient Era starts with Sedentary Lifestyle, which is much more descriptive and meaningful than "Ancient Lifestyle" would be.
I can agree with this. Something that captures the ultimate mindset and essence of the era being entered in a generic sense.

However, I do think it should be the only tech on its x-grid layer.

4) Maybe existing techs could be employed for this purpose. We're not far from having Steam Engine be the only entry-level Industrial tech, for instance.
The problem with this is how it overlaps too much with the 'generic representation of entering this era' aspect of the tech. An invention shouldn't define the era... the social mindset should.

Except that there are techs in the wrong eras, that I agree with.
We really should both take a moment soon to identify those we feel are out of place and why if we're going to be doing some restructuring here.

I am not even convinced that being able to get to the Medieval Era without studying 60% of the Classical Era tech is a problem at all.
Maybe not but I feel that entering the Medieval Era should have its own singularly defined 'gateway' tech to enter it. There are a number of times I've found it very frustrating that there isn't such a clear boundary tech to place certain things as mentioned above.

I am all for dead end techs and dead end branches full of techs.
I can get behind that. I like this thinking too. I don't think the intent of a gateway tech for entering an era should at all be about eliminating this element of tech progression.

I am against techs that make no sense to you nation being mandatory eg Camel Domestication when you don't know what a camel or llama is.
I completely agree with this too. Techs based on specific resource access should very much be something you can work around entirely if you need to or if you choose to so as to give yourself a faster route forward.

I thought once you reached an new era the cost of techs only went up for you only. This means that if you get to Medieval all those Classic era techs you missed would now cost you more to learn that the AI which hadn't reached Medieval. Which would mean they would catch up better.
Yes and no. The current tech cost chart adds a flat increase as well as the incremental increase per x scale for each time you cross into a new era, yes. But the era modifier is there to help craft the progression through the era to be a better match to the dating and to the amount of time we hope players to spend in the era. It helps to adjust to the less controlled variable amount of research increases and losses from obsoletions. So sometimes the % increases, and sometimes it might decrease.
 
To add my 2 cents.

I agree with Jo and Hydro. Being able to beeline through an era is wrong. But as DH pointed out being forced to tech Camel Domestication when you do not have access to camels is also wrong.

What is needed is to list say 10 or 15 major achievements that helped progress civilization in each era. But they should not be based on access to a specific resource. Once you have researched say 75% of them you can progress to the next era.
 
But as DH pointed out being forced to tech Camel Domestication when you do not have access to camels is also wrong.

And the old argument was that Animal Riding should have taken care of all the various Mount Domestication. Cause you could say the same about Horse and Elephants if you don't have access to them either. But that would require you to later, when you did get access, to go back and research an old Tech that could be as much a 2 eras behind you. So that argument doesn't hold much water with me.
 
But that would require you to later, when you did get access, to go back and research an old Tech that could be as much a 2 eras behind you.
Well... what's the problem with this exactly?
 
I can agree with this. Something that captures the ultimate mindset and essence of the era being entered in a generic sense.

However, I do think it should be the only tech on its x-grid layer.

Yes. Also having a single tech at the start of each era could provide an easier way to play later eras from the start of your game. Something people rarely do.
 
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