Boxer Rebellion Scenario
- Thread starter bombshoo
- Start date
And last but not least, your basic Boxers
I know all these little guys are ceramic men, but if someone could make some of these I would be VERY appriciative. Most of these would be good for just plain flavor units and not just for this scenario.
I know all these little guys are ceramic men, but if someone could make some of these I would be VERY appriciative. Most of these would be good for just plain flavor units and not just for this scenario.
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
i know there is a chinese spear man like the boxers
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
what was the name of that chinese crossbow? co ku or something my chinese is horrible T.T
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Chu-ko-nu
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
thanks
jamesjkirk
Warlord
Are those Chinese uniforms generally representative for the late 19th century? Were the uniforms of the Beiyang (New Army) different in any way?
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
they were peasants. this was quite an interesting event in history, a rare occasion before the days of the UN when all the world great powers worked together for a common goal.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 171
My goodness, how can you make an interesting scenario about the Boxer Rebellion on Civ3? Are you going to have the Boxers be a whole bunch of raging and easily defeated barbarian pre-gunpowder units spread across northern China? This doesn't seem like an interesting game, does it? Please take no offense in these comments. But especially after the C3C beta patch comes out next week, a scenario might take about a turn or two before any rebellion is quashed.
Or are you more interested in playing a game in which Japan, Europe, and America war against each other to carve up as big a slice of China as they can seize?
Or are you more interested in playing a game in which Japan, Europe, and America war against each other to carve up as big a slice of China as they can seize?
Well the Boxers were not that easily defeated, espeically when the Empire decided to back them fully. If it was really that easy to squash the rebellion with eight powerful nations involved would it have lasted as long as it did?
(1898-1901). Just remember this was no mere peasent rebellion, and was an all out war at it's height.
The outside powers will be able to carve up China after the war.
(1898-1901). Just remember this was no mere peasent rebellion, and was an all out war at it's height.
The outside powers will be able to carve up China after the war.
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
Im not sure if it was the boxers but some rebel chinese faction in around late 1800s to early 1900s had uniforms and guns and where not to be taken lightly. In fact I think the rebels seen in the picture are just the peasant army and the boxers had a more uniformly one as well. (but Im actually studing korean history right now not chinese, but I think Im right ^ ^;
jamesjkirk
Warlord
You could give the chinese a particuluar government and set it so its citizens are very likely to resist whichever governments the other civs have when you take their cities, so they can't be used for much, and may actually become a burden
The boxers did have quite a few actual uniformed troops with arms, but the bulk was still peasents like the ones pictured, but there was a enough of them, in combination with actual soildars to make them a threat.
Thats a good idea jamesjkirk, however I don't want to do it for all the cities, so I am gonna need to find a way to work with, but so it will fit my needs.
Thats a good idea jamesjkirk, however I don't want to do it for all the cities, so I am gonna need to find a way to work with, but so it will fit my needs.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 171
Bombshoo, just so there is no confusion, my only concern for your project regards whether Civ3 would allow for such an interesting scenario. I want you to know that I do applaud you for trying to make this scenario possible. And in fact, I am curious to see whether you will be able to pull it off because the extremely unsusal mod I have been trying to finish has some fundamental problems I think that this scenario will encounter. I guess we'll see.
But I have no desire to be a downer for you. Instead, I offer some general suggestions which I hope you will find useful:
1. Don't make China and Boxer separate civs. Instead, use the "hidden nationality" flag for buildable/improvement-produced boxer units. Now, hear me out, I know that in real life, there was no doubting their nationality. But this is a game. And I believe that this flag will allow for you to best mimic real events. Computer civs hunt HN units; plus, attacking with HN units do not cause war. . .
2. . . . After all, you may not want China to be at war with anyone until the Manchus back the rebellion officially. One way to make this event probable (since Civ3 does not have an events option) is to create a chinese flavor tech tree that bottlenecks at a "tech" called "The Manchu Government Considers Declaring War." The starting Chinese government could be called "The Manchu at Peace." Chinese units in the first goverment would be able to build weaker HN units; but to build stronger units that would incidentally not be HN, the player would have to research the new gov tech. But most importantly, you'd want the first gov type to be considered favorable by foreigners; and the second would be unfavorable.
3. The player playing China should have a chance to win the game; but they should not be able to come close to overwhleming foreign civs. This fact directly impacts the scope of the map. This is because the map should focus on China and its immediate neighbors. But if so where would you put American, Russian, Japanese, and European cities? The nature of Civ3 is such that the Civ that owns the majority of the territory has an incredible advantage in terms of production and income. In other words, if we play on a big map of China, then clearly, China will be able to outproduce the reallife superpowers. This is not desireable. At the same time, even though playing on a global map has its merits because of the neat potential for using the Panama and Suez Canals, it would take away from the fact that the focus of this scenario should be on China. The suggeston I have for now (and I'm sorry to say that it's a bad one) is to allow the owners of each sphere of influence to own many of the cities under their control. For instance, Hong Kong would be a British city with a British population. This would definitely weaken China--and the foreign powers' superior units would make things very difficult for the boxers.
(4. Incidentally, if you could get someone to make a martial arts master unit, you'd find that C3C comes with the perfect sound wav for it: incredulously, the shogun unit sounds more like Bruce Lee's characters than Toshiro Mifune's.
)
5. You should allow for Diplomatic, Victory Point, and Elimination victory conditions plus Accelerated Production and Capture the Flag.
5a. The Diplomatic condition should be tied to a Great Wonder called The Boxer Protocol. But you should change the script so that instead of voting for a world leader, the players would vote for the right to draft it, ending the rebellion. The name of this historical protocol is intriguingly ambiguous in that it could have been the name the Boxers could have assigned to any treaty they would have coereced the defeated foreigners to sign.
5b. The foreign powers should have the option to rescue foreign diplomats, Chinese Christians, missionaries, military units; this should be an integral part of the game and the rescuer should be rewarded for their effort. If time runs out, then the effectiveness in rescuing should be a consideration in the ranking. These units would be princess units and should appear in Chinese cities. Chinese political prisoners should begin in foreign cities.
5c. The Chinese should be victorious if they manage to root out foreigners in China and in the map. But the super powers should also have the option of taking out everyone else also.
5d. Always use accelerated production, please.
This is getting to be a long post so I'll stop here. Tell me what you think of all this. And happy modding.
But I have no desire to be a downer for you. Instead, I offer some general suggestions which I hope you will find useful:
1. Don't make China and Boxer separate civs. Instead, use the "hidden nationality" flag for buildable/improvement-produced boxer units. Now, hear me out, I know that in real life, there was no doubting their nationality. But this is a game. And I believe that this flag will allow for you to best mimic real events. Computer civs hunt HN units; plus, attacking with HN units do not cause war. . .
2. . . . After all, you may not want China to be at war with anyone until the Manchus back the rebellion officially. One way to make this event probable (since Civ3 does not have an events option) is to create a chinese flavor tech tree that bottlenecks at a "tech" called "The Manchu Government Considers Declaring War." The starting Chinese government could be called "The Manchu at Peace." Chinese units in the first goverment would be able to build weaker HN units; but to build stronger units that would incidentally not be HN, the player would have to research the new gov tech. But most importantly, you'd want the first gov type to be considered favorable by foreigners; and the second would be unfavorable.
3. The player playing China should have a chance to win the game; but they should not be able to come close to overwhleming foreign civs. This fact directly impacts the scope of the map. This is because the map should focus on China and its immediate neighbors. But if so where would you put American, Russian, Japanese, and European cities? The nature of Civ3 is such that the Civ that owns the majority of the territory has an incredible advantage in terms of production and income. In other words, if we play on a big map of China, then clearly, China will be able to outproduce the reallife superpowers. This is not desireable. At the same time, even though playing on a global map has its merits because of the neat potential for using the Panama and Suez Canals, it would take away from the fact that the focus of this scenario should be on China. The suggeston I have for now (and I'm sorry to say that it's a bad one) is to allow the owners of each sphere of influence to own many of the cities under their control. For instance, Hong Kong would be a British city with a British population. This would definitely weaken China--and the foreign powers' superior units would make things very difficult for the boxers.
(4. Incidentally, if you could get someone to make a martial arts master unit, you'd find that C3C comes with the perfect sound wav for it: incredulously, the shogun unit sounds more like Bruce Lee's characters than Toshiro Mifune's.
)5. You should allow for Diplomatic, Victory Point, and Elimination victory conditions plus Accelerated Production and Capture the Flag.
5a. The Diplomatic condition should be tied to a Great Wonder called The Boxer Protocol. But you should change the script so that instead of voting for a world leader, the players would vote for the right to draft it, ending the rebellion. The name of this historical protocol is intriguingly ambiguous in that it could have been the name the Boxers could have assigned to any treaty they would have coereced the defeated foreigners to sign.
5b. The foreign powers should have the option to rescue foreign diplomats, Chinese Christians, missionaries, military units; this should be an integral part of the game and the rescuer should be rewarded for their effort. If time runs out, then the effectiveness in rescuing should be a consideration in the ranking. These units would be princess units and should appear in Chinese cities. Chinese political prisoners should begin in foreign cities.
5c. The Chinese should be victorious if they manage to root out foreigners in China and in the map. But the super powers should also have the option of taking out everyone else also.
5d. Always use accelerated production, please.
This is getting to be a long post so I'll stop here. Tell me what you think of all this. And happy modding.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 171
I wasn't referring to the historical rebellion; I was referring to the Firaxian update: a C3C beta patch is going to come out next week that's going to make it less likely for weaker units to defeat stronger units: Especially early in this scenario, when the Manchu government has not yet given official sanction to the rebellion (1900), which was instigated by an offshoot (I Ho Chuan) of a sect that was actively resisting the Manchus themselves (White Lotus), I was merely suggesting that a stack of gunpowder units would be overly devastating against a peasant uprising if such a confrontation should occur in the beginning of the scenario. I apologize for my non-clarity.
1. Incidentally, an interesting problem in simulating the evolution of the rebellion occurs in trying to mimic at least two levels of foreign aggression to quell the rebellion. At first, the rebellion targeted symbols of Western influence, such as Christian missionaries, and though there were Western reprisals, it wasn't until the attacks on the legations that the final overwhelming coalition force was mobilized and applied.
2. Also, the opium trade issue must be dealt with. Opium should be a luxury resource and pillaging roads to these resources should be a priority. One way to insure that this should be a priority is to limit the number of types of luxury resources.
3. There should be no settler units in game. All cities should be preset.
I was thinking of making China and the Boxers just in a locked alliance. But can you lock an alliance mid-game?
I also want Opium in there, but I don't want the Chinese to producing it. Could I make it so they can't somehow, or make it so it is a treasure unit and an objective or money making means would be to bring it into captured Chinese cities and sell it? This way when the roads are pillaged to it, or the unit carrying it is attacked, it would be a significant loss to the player who had it.
All the countries that are playable are mainly in theire sphere's of influence, however The Untied States has the Phillipines for it's main base. The unplayable countries like Austria-Hungary will only have one city at the most, in which they had high influence, and will only be good for allying against the Boxers with pretty much.
At the begaining of the rebellion, before European troops could actually arrive in bulk, they used alot of mercinaries, or not as well trained troops from close colonies. To represent this I was thinking of maybe a tech so they can't start building theire owne infantry until later. This would also help with the fact that in the early part of the rebellion the Boxers were able to do much more damage.
To deal with the fact that China might be too powerful is why I split it up into Tibet, Mongolia, Imperial China, and the Boxers. Although I like the idea and still might combine the last two.
I also want Opium in there, but I don't want the Chinese to producing it. Could I make it so they can't somehow, or make it so it is a treasure unit and an objective or money making means would be to bring it into captured Chinese cities and sell it? This way when the roads are pillaged to it, or the unit carrying it is attacked, it would be a significant loss to the player who had it.
All the countries that are playable are mainly in theire sphere's of influence, however The Untied States has the Phillipines for it's main base. The unplayable countries like Austria-Hungary will only have one city at the most, in which they had high influence, and will only be good for allying against the Boxers with pretty much.
At the begaining of the rebellion, before European troops could actually arrive in bulk, they used alot of mercinaries, or not as well trained troops from close colonies. To represent this I was thinking of maybe a tech so they can't start building theire owne infantry until later. This would also help with the fact that in the early part of the rebellion the Boxers were able to do much more damage.
To deal with the fact that China might be too powerful is why I split it up into Tibet, Mongolia, Imperial China, and the Boxers. Although I like the idea and still might combine the last two.
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
sounds fun ^ ^
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
I think the best way to keep this historical and yet keep it from being a slaughter is to leave the coalition rather loose. For example, make Japan a free agent. I mean, yes, China and Japan certainly aren't friends at this point, but as a weak power, the strength of the rebels is going to be in their ability to negotiate.
In the end, its not about ultimately winning or losing for them, it's about making a pursuit of crushing them unappealing to the West because of the cost, as well as striking bargains with them to give them an incentive to give China some autonomy.
Unfortunately, with the rather limited diplomatic options and the total lack of an events language, I'm really not sure how well this can be done.
EDIT: Also, maybe the key would be not to give the Europeans any cities at all, but rather to simply have their armies there. Or just give them one city a piece. I mean, if the Chinese can defeat those troops, they stand a chance of winning since the West will not want to commit so many troops to this in that case.
And I suggest giving the Chinese the ability to trade with other civilizations for more advanced weaponry. My suggestion is to create a Resource that all of the advanced civs will have like "Modern Arms" and the Chinese will have to trade for it in order to build stronger units.
In the end, its not about ultimately winning or losing for them, it's about making a pursuit of crushing them unappealing to the West because of the cost, as well as striking bargains with them to give them an incentive to give China some autonomy.
Unfortunately, with the rather limited diplomatic options and the total lack of an events language, I'm really not sure how well this can be done.
EDIT: Also, maybe the key would be not to give the Europeans any cities at all, but rather to simply have their armies there. Or just give them one city a piece. I mean, if the Chinese can defeat those troops, they stand a chance of winning since the West will not want to commit so many troops to this in that case.
And I suggest giving the Chinese the ability to trade with other civilizations for more advanced weaponry. My suggestion is to create a Resource that all of the advanced civs will have like "Modern Arms" and the Chinese will have to trade for it in order to build stronger units.
Runamok Monkey
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 171
@Bombshoo:
re locked alliance:
Bombshoo, I'm sorry to have to inform you that in C3C, "locked alliance" is a misnomer: 1) you are not in a permanent alliance; 2) you may find yourself being extorted with the threat of war by your locked alliance partner; 3) you may find yourself at war with your locked alliance partner (or so I've heard mentioned); 4) "locked alliance" merely means that you begin the scenario in a favorable disposition to each other and this disposition is subject to change depending on the circumstance.
Also, like Dom Pedro, I am perplexed as to why there is no events language. This means that you cannot script or toggle an event, such as forcing two civs to join into a locked alliance once a specific date passes or game-action occurs. For the same reason, you can't script the game such that Austria will enter into a pact with someone against someone else.
re opium:
Becareful here. A resource may only be of one type: strategic, luxury, or bonus. So if you really want to, you can make Opium(strat) and opium (lux): OStrat could produce merchants with powerful attack(w/enslave)/weak defense and you could use them to ravage military units and occassionally turn them into addicts; whereas, OLux would allow for the building of an OPIUM DEN that would create many happy faces such that is OLux becomes a invaluable improvement for metropolises.
re tech to limit unit strength:
You got it; this is what flavor tech tree is for.
@Dom Pedro:
When you imply that for the Boxers, the goal is not conquest but some form of diplomatic victory, I totally agree. That's why I suggested to Bombshoo the "Boxer Protocol" diplomatic victory condition--this may be the best option for this scenario
Also, I am intrigued by your final suggestion--that of the "Modern Arms" strategic resource. It would make the game much more difficult for the Chinese when the Manchus declare war on everyone, but if this could be worked out, it could add layers to the strategic element in the game.
But I would recommend against one of your suggestions: For the sake of gameplay and attempt at historical simulation, there should be a clear evolution of the types of soldiers the West throws at the rebels; after 1900, there should be the sense that the Western civs are reinforcing themselves with much stronger units; this is why the West should have cities and tech tree.
Basically, we should think of the tech tree not in the proper sense, but as a makeshift system of events commands.
re locked alliance:
Bombshoo, I'm sorry to have to inform you that in C3C, "locked alliance" is a misnomer: 1) you are not in a permanent alliance; 2) you may find yourself being extorted with the threat of war by your locked alliance partner; 3) you may find yourself at war with your locked alliance partner (or so I've heard mentioned); 4) "locked alliance" merely means that you begin the scenario in a favorable disposition to each other and this disposition is subject to change depending on the circumstance.
Also, like Dom Pedro, I am perplexed as to why there is no events language. This means that you cannot script or toggle an event, such as forcing two civs to join into a locked alliance once a specific date passes or game-action occurs. For the same reason, you can't script the game such that Austria will enter into a pact with someone against someone else.
re opium:
Becareful here. A resource may only be of one type: strategic, luxury, or bonus. So if you really want to, you can make Opium(strat) and opium (lux): OStrat could produce merchants with powerful attack(w/enslave)/weak defense and you could use them to ravage military units and occassionally turn them into addicts
; whereas, OLux would allow for the building of an OPIUM DEN that would create many happy faces such that is OLux becomes a invaluable improvement for metropolises.re tech to limit unit strength:
You got it; this is what flavor tech tree is for.
@Dom Pedro:
When you imply that for the Boxers, the goal is not conquest but some form of diplomatic victory, I totally agree. That's why I suggested to Bombshoo the "Boxer Protocol" diplomatic victory condition--this may be the best option for this scenario
Also, I am intrigued by your final suggestion--that of the "Modern Arms" strategic resource. It would make the game much more difficult for the Chinese when the Manchus declare war on everyone, but if this could be worked out, it could add layers to the strategic element in the game.
But I would recommend against one of your suggestions: For the sake of gameplay and attempt at historical simulation, there should be a clear evolution of the types of soldiers the West throws at the rebels; after 1900, there should be the sense that the Western civs are reinforcing themselves with much stronger units; this is why the West should have cities and tech tree.
Basically, we should think of the tech tree not in the proper sense, but as a makeshift system of events commands.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
I agree. Lemonade from lemons and all that.
Ok, but at the same time, these units for the Europeans would not be coming from their colonies. It would be coming *mostly* from the home country. So maybe give them two or three coastal Chinese cities, make their techs particularly cheap, and have them build cheap coastal city improvements that gives them reinforcements every X turns rather than having them building them in the cities. Each new tech that provides stronger units should also provide a new improvement that when built replaces the old one, which will be made obsolete by the new tech.
I think that relatively weak boxer units with Hidden Nationality checked could work very well.
The burden to bring about open war though, I think because of the nature of this scenario, will have to fall on the player. I think most of these coastal cities should have victory points there so that there really is no way to win (if you're playing as the Chinese) except to attack your enemies. The boxers could be good to soften them up, but they cannot ultimately capture the enemy cities.
So the idea behind the modern weapons is that China was still rather backward, and so they'd be dependent on buying weapons and munitions from other countries. So maybe they could have some luxury resources other civilizations don't, and they can use that as trading leverage to secure this "Modern Weapons" resource. With this resource, they could then build units with modern weaponry which would be stronger than relying on their own stores of out-dated guns.
Perhaps also, there should be some kind of Weapon's Factory improvement that can be built that would the generate these units for the Chinese every X turns. That way, even after you go to war and lose access to that resource, you can still get these units even if its in smaller quantities. Such technology though should come relatively late in the timeline.
This way, the Chinese have to negotiate and build themselves up before they can properly win the conflict.
