Breaking Save Game Compatibility for v37

[Thunderbrd]

As for health and disease, etc. I think we can remove those issues from the Neanderthal civ. either in the dll or by modifying their native culture free building.

Neanderthals are NPCs. Properties do not function in NPC cities. Thus crime and disease are non-factors for them.

We could always tweak the prereqs for the unit though, make it an either or requirement requires this building or that building.

Neanderthal civ should have their own free and unique native culture just like barbarians have. "Native culture Neanderthal".

From barbarian civilizationInfo

				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CULTURE_HUMAN</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_CULTURE_BARBARIAN</BuildingType>
				</Building>

Interesting idea. That would be helpful.

OK. I will include:

Gatherer and Worker.
Trained Dogs and War Dogs.
Log Ram.

A few more thoughts.

Rafts. not sure as not very powerful - but may be useful if the Neanderthal City starts on a small island, or near a mountain blocking access. Also Canoe and War Canoe.

Work boats. Ancient/Classical.

Trained Cat and War Cat. (Megafawn units.)

With the latter two it might be neat to make that big cat trainer an alternative prereq to the neanderthal autobuilding toffer was talking about.

 

[Harrier]

Great job!

It does seem a little odd that the African Elephant completely unaggressive. I mean I know they don't USUALLY get aggressive..

Just re-reading this thread. Toffers do not know if you have changed the stats since this initial post.

But the male is very aggressive, if you approach the herd. Know from experience in Kenya in 1976. It charged our car and the driver drove faster than he had ever done before - to get away from it. Very scary.

Just a heads up.

 

[Toffer90]

Just re-reading this thread. Toffers do not know if you have changed the stats since this initial post.

I changed its iAggression from 0 to 2 due to his comment.

But the male is very aggressive, if you approach the herd. Know from experience in Kenya in 1976. It charged our car and the driver drove faster than he had ever done before - to get away from it. Very scary.

Just a heads up.

We might want to increase its aggressiveness even further.
My thinking here is that animals with high will level up and become more aggressive while animals with low will not and need a higher base iAggression value. But this discussion should in any case continue in the animal behavior thread.

So I set up iAggression to usually scale inversely proportional with the animals . A temperamental badger will probably not level up often and needs a high iAggression to represent its aggression while a temperamental elephant needs a low base iAggression to not end up as the most temperamental animal in the game.

 

[Toffer90]

@TB:

If:​

Spoiler :

		<CivilizationInfo>
			<Type>CIVILIZATION_NPC_NEANDERTHAL</Type>
			[B][SIZE="4"]<bSeverlyRestricted>1</bSeverlyRestricted>[/SIZE][/B]
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_DESC</Description>
			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
			<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_BLACK</DefaultPlayerColor>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_BARBARIAN</ArtDefineTag>
			<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_BARBARIAN</ArtStyleType>
			<UnitArtStyleType>UNIT_ARTSTYLE_BARBARIAN</UnitArtStyleType>
			[B][SIZE="4"]<Buildings>[/SIZE]
				[SIZE="4"]<Building>[/SIZE]
					[SIZE="4"]<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CULTURE_HUMAN</BuildingClassType>[/SIZE]
					[SIZE="4"]<BuildingType>BUILDING_CULTURE_NEANDERTHAL</BuildingType>[/SIZE]
				[SIZE="4"]</Building>[/SIZE]
			[SIZE="4"]</Buildings>[/SIZE]
			[SIZE="4"]<FreeBuildingClasses>[/SIZE]
				[SIZE="4"]<FreeBuildingClass>[/SIZE]
					[SIZE="4"]<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CULTURE_HUMAN</BuildingClassType>[/SIZE]
					[SIZE="4"]<bFreeBuildingClass>1</bFreeBuildingClass>[/SIZE]
				[SIZE="4"]</FreeBuildingClass>[/SIZE]
			[SIZE="4"]</FreeBuildingClasses>[/SIZE][/B]

Do I then need this:​

Spoiler :

<EnabledCivilizationTypes>
	<EnabledCivilizationType>
		<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_NPC_NEANDERTHAL</CivilizationType>
	</EnabledCivilizationType>
</EnabledCivilizationTypes>

In BUILDING_CULTURE_NEANDERTHAL ?​

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I still have some missions to move into core which may break save games. I should get it done in the next few days.

 

[Toffer90]

@Harrier:

Neanderthal enabled buildings:

Stone Tool Workshop
Canoe Builder Hut
Most prehistoric buildings really
All gatherer type buildings
Some buildings - dance hut - music hut
Some Canine related buildings​

Not:

Chieftains Hut
Healers Hut
Most & buildings​

This is only meant as a pointer, it is entirely up to you for now.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@TB:

If:​

Spoiler :

		<CivilizationInfo>
			<Type>CIVILIZATION_NPC_NEANDERTHAL</Type>
			[B][SIZE="4"]<bSeverlyRestricted>1</bSeverlyRestricted>[/SIZE][/B]
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_DESC</Description>
			<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
			<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_NPC_NEANDERTHAL_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_BLACK</DefaultPlayerColor>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_BARBARIAN</ArtDefineTag>
			<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_BARBARIAN</ArtStyleType>
			<UnitArtStyleType>UNIT_ARTSTYLE_BARBARIAN</UnitArtStyleType>
			[B][SIZE="4"]<Buildings>[/SIZE]
				[SIZE="4"]<Building>[/SIZE]
					[SIZE="4"]<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CULTURE_HUMAN</BuildingClassType>[/SIZE]
					[SIZE="4"]<BuildingType>BUILDING_CULTURE_NEANDERTHAL</BuildingType>[/SIZE]
				[SIZE="4"]</Building>[/SIZE]
			[SIZE="4"]</Buildings>[/SIZE][/B]

Do I then need this:​

Spoiler :

<EnabledCivilizationTypes>
	<EnabledCivilizationType>
		<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_NPC_NEANDERTHAL</CivilizationType>
	</EnabledCivilizationType>
</EnabledCivilizationTypes>

In BUILDING_CULTURE_NEANDERTHAL ?​

I think you would need both, yes. I'm not 100% sure that the free assignment wouldn't get around the prerequisite fulfillment though so its possible you wouldn't need the Enabled tag but I'd do it just to be safe.

 

[Harrier]

@Harrier:

Neanderthal enabled buildings:
All gatherer type buildings

Not:

Most & buildings​

This is only meant as a pointer, it is entirely up to you for now.

Interested in you reasons for Not most food. .
The gatherer type buildings are about food.

Gold I will leave for now. We can always add a few in later if needed.

Or were you refering to the various camp type buidings that provided both food and gold.


What about the Myth buidings?

 

[Toffer90]

Interested in you reasons for Not most food. .
The gatherer type buildings are about food.

Gold I will leave for now. We can always add a few in later if needed.

Or were you refering to the various camp type buidings that provided both food and gold.


What about the Myth buidings?

We want them to focus on mainly military and Neanderthals cities requires 20% less food for growth while we don't want them to outgrow the proper civs.
I don't think any of the NPC players pay unit/city maintanence, so gold is pretty much a non-issue for them.

I have seen that they can subdue animals so some animal related buildings may be justified.

 

[Toffer90]

considering that Neanderthals had language and stone tools long before humans homo sapiens we might want to give them a bunch of free techs, this would also mean that we must restrict their further science.
So no myths and very few science related buildings.

 

[Toffer90]

I think you would need both, yes. I'm not 100% sure that the free assignment wouldn't get around the prerequisite fulfillment though so its possible you wouldn't need the Enabled tag but I'd do it just to be safe.

Upon further thinking I realize that you must be right, we need both, as the culture uses normal autobuild rules and that tag in civilizationInfo doesn't give the building for free at all. CivilizationInfo have another tag for giving a free building, but that only counts for the first city.

 

[Toffer90]

moved.

 

[Arakhor]

considering that Neanderthals had language and stone tools long before humans we might want to give them a bunch of free techs, this would also mean that we must restrict their further science.

Presumably you mean homo sapiens, because Neanderthals were also humans. I have no idea whether Neanderthals would qualify as possessing behavioural modernity, but because homo sapiens out-performed Neanderthals, presumably because of their limited ability to adapt to changing conditions in Europe, it would seem a little odd to suggest that they should be more technologically advanced.

For that matter, depending on how you define stone tools, you have three major increases in technology during the Olduwan (2.5 Ga), Acheulian (1.5 Ga) and Mousterian (200 Ma) eras, and depending on from when you date the emergence of Neanderthal man, all three advances may predate them.

 

[Toffer90]

Presumably you mean homo sapiens, because Neanderthals were also humans. I have no idea whether Neanderthals would qualify as possessing behavioural modernity, but because homo sapiens out-performed Neanderthals, presumably because of their limited ability to adapt to changing conditions in Europe, it would seem a little odd to suggest that they should be more technologically advanced.

For that matter, depending on how you define stone tools, you have three major increases in technology during the Olduwan (2.5 Ga), Acheulian (1.5 Ga) and Mousterian (200 Ma) eras, and depending on from when you date the emergence of Neanderthal man, all three advances may predate them.

Yeah, I meant sapiens sapiens.
I guess the logic fits better with my modmod where the game starts in 200 000 BC.
In 50 000 BC after the Neanderthal population had been decimated by the last glacial period, sapiens sapiens had pretty much caught up with the Neanderthal technological head start. There is however IMO enough evidence to say that neanderthals had more advanced stone tools and society structure than sapiens sapiens had pre 100 000 BC.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If I remember correctly there is some physical evidence from the shoulder configuration of Neanderthals to suggest they would not be able to use thrown weapons like stones, atlatl or spears.

 

[Arakhor]

There is however IMO enough evidence to say that neanderthals had more advanced stone tools and society structure than sapiens sapiens had pre 100 000 BC.

Well, yes, but modern humans and Neanderthals supposedly never met until we expanded into Europe in the first place. Unless you're explicitly going for the "dying empire" theme with the Neanderthals as an advanced but stagnant and ultimately doomed culture, that's no reason to stick to the archaeological record simply because it happened that way in our world.

If I remember correctly there is some physical evidence from the shoulder configuration of Neanderthals to suggest they would not be able to use thrown weapons like stones, atlatl or spears.

Jean M Auel makes a lot of hay out that in her Earth's Children series. There's also the physical suggestion that they couldn't speak as easily as we can, due to the formation of their larynxes. (I think that's right.)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well, yes, but modern humans and Neanderthals supposedly never met until we expanded into Europe in the first place. Unless you're explicitly going for the "dying empire" theme with the Neanderthals as an advanced but stagnant and ultimately doomed culture, that's no reason to stick to the archaeological record simply because it happened that way in our world.

That's not a bad goal for Neanderthals really. They probably WERE dominant over homo sapien for a time. As you look back at human history, it's clear there's an underlying theme of might being gradually overtaken by intellect throughout the whole of the fabric of it.

 

[Arakhor]

That's partly why I suggested that theme, so you could at least have an excuse for doing what Toffer wants.

 

[Toffer90]

Unless you're explicitly going for the "dying empire" theme with the Neanderthals as an advanced but stagnant and ultimately doomed culture.

Kinda what I envision their role to be in C2C.

 

[Noriad2]

Paleontologists regularly found small black stones with lots of scratches near many Neanderthal settlements, the chemical composition of these stones was manganese oxide.

The paleontologists were puzzled about this, until they found out that if you rub those stones together, it works as a catalyst: it lowers the combustion temperature of wood from 350 degrees celsius to 250 degrees celsius and also speeds up the rate of burning. This hints at an unknown Neanderthal technology for making fire.