Brittany

[Israelite9191]

I am currently writing an alternate history timeline in the NES forum, and I'm having some trouble getting a straight answer from my resources on something. Basically, how independent was Brittany in the early stages of the Hundred Years War (during the War of Breton Succession), say, around 1340?

 

[Verbose]

I am currently writing an alternate history timeline in the NES forum, and I'm having some trouble getting a straight answer from my resources on something. Basically, how independent was Brittany in the early stages of the Hundred Years War (during the War of Breton Succession), say, around 1340?

What resources do you have and what are they saying?

Sorry, but it would help to know what you've already found, if I should try to dig something up on the issue.

Off the cuff, Bretagne would have the same virtual independance under their formal overlord the king of France as the other traditional great counties and duchies (like Toulouse, Bourgogne etc.).

 

[Israelite9191]

Basically I've read every related article in Wikipedia and looked at several maps that I could find online. They all tend to either blatantly disagree or hint in one direction or another (the latter seems more popular).

Oh, and Brittany is Celtic, not French! Grrrrr! If you insist on something in the native tongue, than Breizh would be more appropriate.

 

[Verbose]

Basically I've read every related article in Wikipedia and looked at several maps that I could find online. They all tend to either blatantly disagree or hint in one direction or another (the latter seems more popular).

Oh, and Brittany is Celtic, not French! Grrrrr! If you insist on something in the native tongue, than Breizh would be more appropriate.

Maybe this is useful? Quite a bit of back story at least.
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/early/origins/rom_celt/celticfringe.html#Brittany

 

[Plotinus]

Surely Brittany is Celtic and French - just as Wales is Celtic and British!

 

[Verbose]

Surely Brittany is Celtic and French - just as Wales is Celtic and British!

Yes, well, at about the same time Henry VIII and Francois I decided their realms should be administered exclusively in English and French respectively. The Welsh and the Breton haven't accepted the decision yet.
Compared to the Occitans, the Bretons have done rather better at keeping their language.

But I wasn't trying to be colloquial. I just wasn't thinking about it and used the names of the traditional great French semi-indepedent counties, which also happens to be the same in French and Swedish, so I might actually have been guilty of a Swedicism here.

It's a bit complex at times, if you're not unilingual.

 

[Evie]

"As much independance as Burgundy" pretty much translating to "independant in all but name", of course :-D

(But this is probably false, as Britanny was only ever the duchy ; Burgundy controled lots of non-french lands over which the king of France had no authority).

 

[Verbose]

"As much independance as Burgundy" pretty much translating to "independant in all but name", of course :-D

(But this is probably false, as Britanny was only ever the duchy ; Burgundy controled lots of non-french lands over which the king of France had no authority).

As Carolingian power declined for a while there was actually a number of Breton rulers who took the title of king, beginning with Erispoë.

 

[Evie]

"only ever the duchy" in the sense that the dukes (note dukes ; not talking about the post-carolingian kings) of Britanny never controled land that was not part of the kingdom of France.

 

[Israelite9191]

Thanks people! In particular that website you gave me Verbose looks spectacular.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Basically I've read every related article in Wikipedia and looked at several maps that I could find online. They all tend to either blatantly disagree or hint in one direction or another (the latter seems more popular).

Oh, and Brittany is Celtic, not French! Grrrrr! If you insist on something in the native tongue, than Breizh would be more appropriate.

Good. Can't stand it when people write it in the French manner using the English language. Talk about swallowing ...

Surely Brittany is Celtic and French - just as Wales is Celtic and British!

It's French because it was conquered. The Welsh are no more English than the Bretons are French, though "British" is a nice way of getting them to accept rule by foreigners (technically, as far as the treaties of Union are concerned, Wales is not a constituent nation of the United Kingdom, but part of England). Having said that, Bretons are free to think of themselves as French if they want to ... all nations are just inventions anyways.

 

[Verbose]

Good. Can't stand it when people write it in the French manner using the English language. Talk about swallowing ...

Tja... Jag sväljer en massa engelska hela tiden i alla fall...

 

[Steph]

It's French because it was conquered.

Brittany wasn't conquered. We got it through marriage.

 

[Israelite9191]

And then it rebelled several times and was conquered several times. Brittany never really felt comfortable as part of France until rather recently, and even now most Bretons seem to put their Breton identity ahead of their French identity. I mean, there is a reason that the Breton language has survived in some form despite the horribly abusive French language laws.

 

[Verbose]

And then it rebelled several times and was conquered several times. Brittany never really felt comfortable as part of France until rather recently, and even now most Bretons seem to put their Breton identity ahead of their French identity. I mean, there is a reason that the Breton language has survived in some form despite the horribly abusive French language laws.

If you read French, this one seems pretty good.
http://perso.orange.fr/histoire-bretagne/Fichiers HTML/chronologie.htm

The whole site is an initiative by the local Breton authorities. It briefly summarizes how... Breizh... if you wish (from now on I expect you to consistently refer to Wales as Cymru) ) managed to juggle English and French influence and trade a relative freedom (staying out wars) into economic prosperity in the late Middle Ages. That seems to have given the Bretons a strong national heritage to pit against the French influence.

One of the reasons... Breizh... kept more of its language than say the... Cymru... was that it was that industrialisation left it as a backwater. Wales (oh, I know it's an imperialistic misnomer, but bear with me) on the other hand was one of the very first parts of the British Islands to industrialize, and that meant an huge influx of Englishmen in the south as there was a shortage of labour.
The Bretons did get an entirely indigenous demographic boost in the 19th century and could export people (dirt poor and starving), while the "heartland" remained occupied with sailing, fishing and agriculture. That still left it to deal with the concentrated effort of the French state to kill off the language, very similar to the "Welsh Not" campaign, I might add.

 

[Pangur Bán]

If you read French, this one seems pretty good.
http://perso.orange.fr/histoire-bretagne/Fichiers HTML/chronologie.htm

The whole site is an initiative by the local Breton authorities. It briefly summarizes how... Breizh... if you wish (from now on I expect you to consistently refer to Wales as Cymru) ) managed to juggle English and French influence and trade a relative freedom (staying out wars) into economic prosperity in the late Middle Ages. That seems to have given the Bretons a strong national heritage to pit against the French influence.

One of the reasons... Breizh... kept more of its language than say the... Cymru... was that it was that industrialisation left it as a backwater. Wales (oh, I know it's an imperialistic misnomer, but bear with me) on the other hand was one of the very first parts of the British Islands to industrialize, and that meant an huge influx of Englishmen in the south as there was a shortage of labour.
The Bretons did get an entirely indigenous demographic boost in the 19th century and could export people (dirt poor and starving), while the "heartland" remained occupied with sailing, fishing and agriculture. That still left it to deal with the concentrated effort of the French state to kill off the language, very similar to the "Welsh Not" campaign, I might add.

Actually, Welsh is just as healthy if not more healthy that Breton. Industrialization in south Wales sometimes caused significant re-Welshification of parts of the south of Wales where the bulk of the migrant workers came from Welsh Wales. To this day the majority of the Welsh landmass is Welsh-speaking, though only about half a million of nearly three million fluently speak the language.

 

[Israelite9191]

If you read French, this one seems pretty good.
http://perso.orange.fr/histoire-bretagne/Fichiers HTML/chronologie.htm

The whole site is an initiative by the local Breton authorities. It briefly summarizes how... Breizh... if you wish (from now on I expect you to consistently refer to Wales as Cymru) ) managed to juggle English and French influence and trade a relative freedom (staying out wars) into economic prosperity in the late Middle Ages. That seems to have given the Bretons a strong national heritage to pit against the French influence.

One of the reasons... Breizh... kept more of its language than say the... Cymru... was that it was that industrialisation left it as a backwater. Wales (oh, I know it's an imperialistic misnomer, but bear with me) on the other hand was one of the very first parts of the British Islands to industrialize, and that meant an huge influx of Englishmen in the south as there was a shortage of labour.
The Bretons did get an entirely indigenous demographic boost in the 19th century and could export people (dirt poor and starving), while the "heartland" remained occupied with sailing, fishing and agriculture. That still left it to deal with the concentrated effort of the French state to kill off the language, very similar to the "Welsh Not" campaign, I might add.

Thanks for the link. My French isn't perfect, but it should prove at least moderately helpful. Also, since we are speaking English here, I do not mind Wales, just as I don't mind Brittany. It is merely that if you are going to go out of your way to refer to a nation by its native tongue, one should use the appropriate native tongue.

Actually, Welsh is just as healthy if not more healthy that Breton. Industrialization in south Wales sometimes caused significant re-Welshification of parts of the south of Wales where the bulk of the migrant workers came from Welsh Wales. To this day the majority of the Welsh landmass is Welsh-speaking, though only about half a million of nearly three million fluently speak the language.

Very true. In my short experience in Wales I found that Welsh was more prominent than any other Celtic language in its native country, including Gaelic in Ireland.

 

[Verbose]

It is merely that if you are going to go out of your way to refer to a nation by its native tongue, one should use the appropriate native tongue.

I think your sensitivity is a tad misplaced.
Few people around here have a more active interest in the Celtic Fringe than me.
What makes you think I was trying to "go out of my way" to refer to it in what I assumed was the "native tongue"?
My native tongue is Swedish.
The province in question is currently French.
The name of the province is the same in Swedish as in French.
But this is an English speaking forum.
It should be "Brittany" no matter what then I suppose.
I find it all a bit silly really.

 

[Israelite9191]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound nearly so antagonistic. Please forgive me. Often, I unfortunatley find myself forgetting that not everyone here speaks English as a first language and that for some of us it is going out of our way to say it in English even. Again, my apologies.