Ramesses-Rules
King
I don't understand why he doesn't build granaries. That is normally the second thing I build in a new city (after Oblisk, if I didn't build Stonehenge).
BTS A guide for higher difficulties for standard speed and maps (emperor+)
- Thread starter Snaaty
- Start date
a lot of what you build depends on the situation
:1. i learned the hard way on deity for exemple that early archery is a must, cause gambling on bronze and/or horses kills you more often than you survive without (if you try to play without reloading that is
). having gold/gems... in your capitals bfc might change things, cause you can squeeze in bronze and maybe even AH, but thats a special case again. living on an island or a peninsula or having neighbours that near that you can early fogbust everything is another special case in which you might skip archery. i got a lot of criticism for my advice for going always for archery, but i refuse base any strategy on luck...2. i also learned the hard way that not having a minimum military score results in early war declarations you simply cant defend against. so i adapted my build order to the needs on deity:
- monument if not kre is first build
- baracks is first or second build
- 4-6 axes/chariots in next build
- granary, lib etc. after the above mentioned cause you dont absolutely need them to survive (they really help, but NOT beeing killed early helps more
)if you get declared upon having like 6 mobile units (axes and/or chariots) and the 4-6 archers you built in the beginning, you should be able to sit out any war declaration around turn 1000 BC (build a junk city and gift it for peace or try to get alpha in time to give a tech for peace)
point 2 should answer your question
Ramesses-Rules
King
a lot of what you build depends on the situation
1. i learned the hard way on deity for exemple that early archery is a must, cause gambling on bronze and/or horses kills you more often than you survive without (if you try to play without reloading that is
2. i also learned the hard way that not having a minimum military score results in early war declarations you simply cant defend against. so i adapted my build order to the needs on deity:
- monument if not kre is first build
- baracks is first or second build
- 4-6 axes/chariots in next build
- granary, lib etc. after the above mentioned cause you dont absolutely need them to survive (they really help, but NOT beeing killed early helps more
if you get declared upon having like 6 mobile units (axes and/or chariots) and the 4-6 archers you built in the beginning, you should be able to sit out any war declaration around turn 1000 BC (build a junk city and gift it for peace or try to get alpha in time to give a tech for peace)
point 2 should answer your question
I understand your point. I just couldn't see where you fit Granary into your build order. If it is a city where I intend to have a Library, I like to build the Granary early so that by the time the Library is built, I have population 5-6 so that I can immediately run a couple Scientists. And I can run Priests there while waiting for the Library. IOW, I think Granary is very important early for research and economy....just not QUITE as important as staying alive.
Snaaty,
I tried my first game with your basic strategy last night and ran into some problems. I am playing Fractal, Temperate, Huge, Epic. That's probably putting me a little further from the neighbor civs I want to block. I also have tons of jungle on my map, which is slowing down fog-busting. All of these combined seem to be resulting in more Barbs than normal, though I have to confess I'm used to playing with Barbs off, so maybe it's just that I'm not used to managing them.
I got lucky on my capital site and have 2 pigs and iron adjacent. But when the Barbs came in numbers. They didn't just go for my city, they started pillaging these improvements. I guess the thing is that I need to use those archers to sweep and not just defend the capital.
Here's my main question: I lost my first scout to a panther attack and my second to some Barb. I know hammers are crucial this early, but so is fog-busting. What do you advise about replacing early losses vs. continuing with the strategy? (I feel like I fell behind on capitalizing on my iron because I wasted effort building the extra scouts. This has me fending off Barb axes and spears with just archers and it's not going all that great.)
2nd Question: Your guide doesn't seem to address who is defending those cities you are pumping out, unless I've misunderstood. I understood the early archers to be for capital defense. What am I missing here?
I tried my first game with your basic strategy last night and ran into some problems. I am playing Fractal, Temperate, Huge, Epic. That's probably putting me a little further from the neighbor civs I want to block. I also have tons of jungle on my map, which is slowing down fog-busting. All of these combined seem to be resulting in more Barbs than normal, though I have to confess I'm used to playing with Barbs off, so maybe it's just that I'm not used to managing them.
I got lucky on my capital site and have 2 pigs and iron adjacent. But when the Barbs came in numbers. They didn't just go for my city, they started pillaging these improvements. I guess the thing is that I need to use those archers to sweep and not just defend the capital.
Here's my main question: I lost my first scout to a panther attack and my second to some Barb. I know hammers are crucial this early, but so is fog-busting. What do you advise about replacing early losses vs. continuing with the strategy? (I feel like I fell behind on capitalizing on my iron because I wasted effort building the extra scouts. This has me fending off Barb axes and spears with just archers and it's not going all that great.)
2nd Question: Your guide doesn't seem to address who is defending those cities you are pumping out, unless I've misunderstood. I understood the early archers to be for capital defense. What am I missing here?
Please ignore my last question. Further play made the point clear. I've been enjoying trying out this strategy on my last four Prince-level games. My last game, however, was a disaster and I'm guessing it just wasn't a game that fit well with this strategy. I started off in as Willem on SW of square-shaped small continent (huge fractal temperate low-seas) with Wang to my east and Hannibal somewhat northeast of him. Everything to my north was jungle. No continents reachable by galley. The jungle makes fog busting difficult and I struggle against Barbs from the north for a long long time. Wang gets GW, so the Barbs ignore him (he's got Hannibal, me and ocean on his borders anyway). Still, everything goes mostly according to plan for a long time, but neither neighbor is interested in researching Alphabet in like forever. Finally, after building GL without alpha (!), Wang gets it and I trade for it. But it's already like 500 AD and I'm running way behind schedule. Most of my blocking cities are in marginal tundra/hill areas and just are growing effectively. Most of my good health resources are seafood and keep getting pillaged by Barb galleys. Around 1450, somebody across the world gets Lib while I'm working on Ed.
Do you think my conclusion that this was just a rotten location with some bum luck if I wanted to try this strategy is right, or does it sound like I'm missing something else?
Also a research strategy question: Drama and Theology offer two different research paths toward your goal. Depending on circumstances (AI offering to trade one or the other), one can be the easier path in one game vs. the other. Is there any compelling reason for going with one or the other? I know that Theatres and the AP can both be handy, but don't seem essential (especially if I'm Creative).
Do you think my conclusion that this was just a rotten location with some bum luck if I wanted to try this strategy is right, or does it sound like I'm missing something else?
Also a research strategy question: Drama and Theology offer two different research paths toward your goal. Depending on circumstances (AI offering to trade one or the other), one can be the easier path in one game vs. the other. Is there any compelling reason for going with one or the other? I know that Theatres and the AP can both be handy, but don't seem essential (especially if I'm Creative).
Ghpstage
Deity
@EditorRex,
This guide is written for higher difficulties and as such compensates for and makes use of AI bonuses.
The Aesthetics for Alpha trade thing is almost never a good idea below Emperor and is only so-so there, only coming into major use on Immortal. On Prince, AIs research so slowly that waiting for AIs to research Alpha so you can trade Aesthetics for it will set you behind several thousand years......
Your also not going to need Archery, the reliance on Archery is a purely Deity thing as gambling on Copper or horses appearing is very risky when barb Axes will appear shortly after you research AH or BW.
Your missing something
This guide is written for higher difficulties and as such compensates for and makes use of AI bonuses.
The Aesthetics for Alpha trade thing is almost never a good idea below Emperor and is only so-so there, only coming into major use on Immortal. On Prince, AIs research so slowly that waiting for AIs to research Alpha so you can trade Aesthetics for it will set you behind several thousand years......
Your also not going to need Archery, the reliance on Archery is a purely Deity thing as gambling on Copper or horses appearing is very risky when barb Axes will appear shortly after you research AH or BW.
@EditorRex,
Your missing something
This guide is written for higher difficulties and as such compensates for and makes use of AI bonuses.
The Aesthetics for Alpha trade thing is almost never a good idea below Emperor and is only so-so there, only coming into major use on Immortal. On Prince, AIs research so slowly that waiting for AIs to research Alpha so you can trade Aesthetics for it will set you behind several thousand years......
Your also not going to need Archery, the reliance on Archery is a purely Deity thing as gambling on Copper or horses appearing is very risky when barb Axes will appear shortly after you research AH or BW.
I think you are partially right Ghpstage, but I tried an experiment last night that showed me something else. The key problem isn't my level (still playing Prince), but my preference for Large to Huge maps (Fractal Temperate Low-seas). When playing on large land masses with Barbs on, add more rivals. The extra rivals (14 instead of 8)changed the dynamic of the bigger map so that blocking worked more like it does on a smaller map. In my other big-maps games, I was falling behind because I spent too much time fending off Barbs and had too much fill-space between my capital and blocking cities. This was my best start ever at any level, having played it to 900 A.D. so far.
Skallagrimson
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 2,043
Tried the guide, got completely owned lol. Barbs settled all the arable land around my cap, and just beyond the barbs, the AIs. Nowhere to go, no metals, toast. Restart to a reasonable level.
Ramesses-Rules
King
@EditorRex,
Your missing something
This guide is written for higher difficulties and as such compensates for and makes use of AI bonuses.
The Aesthetics for Alpha trade thing is almost never a good idea below Emperor and is only so-so there, only coming into major use on Immortal. On Prince, AIs research so slowly that waiting for AIs to research Alpha so you can trade Aesthetics for it will set you behind several thousand years......
Your also not going to need Archery, the reliance on Archery is a purely Deity thing as gambling on Copper or horses appearing is very risky when barb Axes will appear shortly after you research AH or BW.
I am only at Immortal now, so I don't do the Archer thing. I can almost always get either metal or horses before the Barbs arrive in numbers. If not, I hit start a new game. The rest of it I have been using for some time, and it works pretty well.
However, I broke the mold in my current Immortal game. There are 4 of us on this continent -- Cyrus (top military dude), Shaka, Cathrine, and me. I beelined to Confucionism and converted Cyrus and Shaka. Catherine was already Judism. So now we are 3 against one on religion, and I am trying to make sure I beat her to Theocracy. On the good advice of TMIT, I quit playing for religion months ago, but am trying this just as a departure from the normal formula.
yanner39
Emperor
However, I broke the mold in my current Immortal game. There are 4 of us on this continent -- Cyrus (top military dude), Shaka, Cathrine, and me. I beelined to Confucionism and converted Cyrus and Shaka. Catherine was already Judism. So now we are 3 against one on religion, and I am trying to make sure I beat her to Theocracy. On the good advice of TMIT, I quit playing for religion months ago, but am trying this just as a departure from the normal formula.
This question is not related to the guide but more to the concept of "converting" AI Civs to your religion. I don't use the game aspect of religion enough in my games, except to converting to the dominant religion (which I guess is good enough in most games). BUt how does one go about "converting" an AI Civ? Is it simply founding a religion or if you already have a state religion, and spreading it to the AI? Even if you spread it, what makes it sure that the AI will convert especially if they already have a religion? Is this done through diplomacy by asking the AI to convert?
vranasm
Deity
when they find religion there is almost no chance to convert them.
If they dont, spread your religion and if more population of your religion they have then the sooner then there is almost easy to convert them through diplomacy.
I think another option is with spies (I am not so sure) and since they can always switch back I would mostly try with spreading as much religion as you can so your religion is dominant, they sometimes switch on their own.
Ramesses-Rules
King
If they don't already have a religion, they will convert when you send in a missionary. Or, if you're lucky, you can get them via natural spread. If they already have a religion that THEY founded, they are not going to switch to your religion except perhaps in extreme cases. If they have a different religion than yours which they did NOT found and they will give you Open Borders, then flood them with missionaries. Send missionaries to their two largest cities. That often works. If not, offer a bribe (or maybe a threat if you can crush them militarily).
While we're talking religion, I have an unusual situation in the game I'm playing. I'm now real close to an early domination win (c 1750) on Prince, but I'm crossing my fingers that the AI doesn't pull off an AP-cheese before I get the last few squares. Got 12 of us on one big continent and Judaism quickly became dominant religion of my neighbors. Enough Buddhists and Confucians around that I didn't commit early, but at some point it became expedient to go with Judiasm for the Pacifism and Theocracy phases. Around 1000 AD or so, Gilgamesh pulls the AP. He's majority Confucian, but had converted to Hinduism at the time. Only major Hindu state is Wang, who's also really tiny. Present-day, Gilgamesh is my vassal and Wang is vassal to my only real rival, Peter (Buddhist). Gil still has the AP and Wang still has the lion's share of Hindus. A vote still pops up occassionally. I don't really have time to send out Hindu missionaries to all my big cities. I feel like I was still right to go with the major region on this map (Judaism) rather than the AP religion (Hindu). Anyone else run into this issue?
CornPlanter
Emperor
What Attacko used to say about reloaders, eh? Shame on you ;P
obsolete
Deity
Oh jeeze, is Snaaty dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb! Every rookie knows that the first three builds of your capital on even hard levels should be WORKER --> WORKER --> SETTLER.
Amazes me that some deity guys STILL don't even know that!
What are you good for Snaaty, besides giving terrible advice? This strategy post is terrible!
Not sure whether obsolete is joking around or is serious, but Snaaty strategy works and it also works on Prince and Large map at Epic.
Secured my first Domination win on Prince with this, playing as Willem. Key to make strategy work for this level/map size was 12 or more players. Too much fog with less.
Win was pretty easy despite some mistakes I know I made and won't make next time. Built Globe in a city with too many mountain/desert sectors and did too much Whipping early in my major production city, so that it was too small when I needed it. Let someone trade SM to me too soon. Since land is a prime issue in Domination, I've got to work on the right amount of contiguous land to take before vassalling. As game went on, I learned major things about attacking with Rifle/Infantry-dominant stacks with Vassal support. (Let them do the suicide attacks.) Same for bribing the AI just right (Mehmed, I've got like 50 rifles on your borders to keep them safe for you from my vassals Elizabeth and Isabelle, and I was thinking you should send all your Janissaries across the world to plunder Napoleon so I can take out half your cities in one turn, five turns from now when I attack, plus he'll be weaker when I come for him. I've got this nifty Constitution idea I could show you if you're interested.) Learning process though it was, I got Elizabeth (she just volunteered), Ragnar, Gilgamish, Isabel, Mehmed, Napoleon and Toku to Vassal to me before I had to deal with the one real problem, Peter. Creative trait helped me get the last few square miles I needed for Domination, just before Peter put Fission and Rocketry together to get nasty.
Anyway, this was my second-best scoring win ever (had one Warlord Domination win as Charlemagne on a Huge Marathon map that was amazing), and I plan to keep using this strategy. Now experimenting as Pericles.
Secured my first Domination win on Prince with this, playing as Willem. Key to make strategy work for this level/map size was 12 or more players. Too much fog with less.
Win was pretty easy despite some mistakes I know I made and won't make next time. Built Globe in a city with too many mountain/desert sectors and did too much Whipping early in my major production city, so that it was too small when I needed it. Let someone trade SM to me too soon. Since land is a prime issue in Domination, I've got to work on the right amount of contiguous land to take before vassalling. As game went on, I learned major things about attacking with Rifle/Infantry-dominant stacks with Vassal support. (Let them do the suicide attacks.) Same for bribing the AI just right (Mehmed, I've got like 50 rifles on your borders to keep them safe for you from my vassals Elizabeth and Isabelle, and I was thinking you should send all your Janissaries across the world to plunder Napoleon so I can take out half your cities in one turn, five turns from now when I attack, plus he'll be weaker when I come for him. I've got this nifty Constitution idea I could show you if you're interested.) Learning process though it was, I got Elizabeth (she just volunteered), Ragnar, Gilgamish, Isabel, Mehmed, Napoleon and Toku to Vassal to me before I had to deal with the one real problem, Peter. Creative trait helped me get the last few square miles I needed for Domination, just before Peter put Fission and Rocketry together to get nasty.
Anyway, this was my second-best scoring win ever (had one Warlord Domination win as Charlemagne on a Huge Marathon map that was amazing), and I plan to keep using this strategy. Now experimenting as Pericles.
I've lost over 20 emp games in a row, I don't know how you do it... either Shaka/Genghis kills me in the BCE, or the AI outtechs me in sometime during the renaissance, even though I won liberalism. It is getting to the point where I'm burned out from Civ due to only losing.
Ramesses-Rules
King
It took me quite awhile to win consistently at emperor. I am now stuck at Immortal level for about the last couple months. But if you follow the formula he gave and don't make fatal errors, you will start winning. The thing that got me over the hump at Emperor was just to slow down and micro-manage my cities. You can't afford to get sloppy. Diplomacy is also essential. I always play for Cultural Victory and never have the top military, but if you manage the military dudes diplomatically, you can get through a whole game without getting attacked by them and running Pacifism much of the time. Alexander seems to be the exception for me. If I see he is my neighbor, I prepare for war immediately. I think he is the most trigger-happy civ in the game.
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