BtS 3.13: Infinite City Sprawl 02 - Cities 'n Conscription

[r_rolo1]

Deity anyone?

Why not?

Really, the worst thing that it can happen is to lose and losing in Deity is not a shame at all. The big problem is that we would have to rely more in musket and mace drafting ,given that in Deity AI starts with a extra settler. But probably it is doable...

About this one: Given that I haven't played the first one, I must say that a fully developed ICS clearly has a superior prod potential ( with or without drafting ). too bad that Civ IV maintenance fees make it lag a lot researchwise, but in Civ IV big numbers still pwn

 

[mystyfly]

^^ I definitely agree. I think we should compare the two games and probabely we'll find a better way in the next game.
Key elements still are Oracle + say 2 out of 3 of USak/AP/SM and, with a little luck, a good start and lots of forests, we can accomplish these.

Deity will clearly be more interesting, also in regard of war: not only will we face more defenders also we might actually find us behind in tech (who would've thought ) so we'll surely have quite some pressure which makes the game more enjoyable. Victory is just icing

edit: but we'll probabely need a few new daring team members

 

[mystyfly]

We're officially good now!

This is where I take over


(1) 1802AD
DOW Louis


DOW WvO


Found Dhaka (we can't only raze cities, must also found some)


(2) 1804AD
Capture Dijon


Spot some minor trouble


IBT
Louis captures Tours (american border city). So this is where the Artillery/Cav stack headed... Those cavs would've torn our cannons apart...

(3) 1806AD
Capture Rheims (Colossus woot!)


I somehow underestimated Louis, he's already willing to capitulate. Paris would've fallen next turn but I accept


Still quite a bit away from DOM


IBT
Pop Coal (woot)

(4) 1808AD
Facism in > Astro (the only tech we'll finish in time

(5) 1810AD
Thanks to Louis spamming railroads I already reach and raze Nijmegen (Louis' stack nearby left only one defender alive. That was close)


(6) 1812AD
... Somehow I like this new BUG feature, grouping units, but it easily gets messy


(7) 1814AD
Astro in > Combustion
GA ends
Raze Leiden


WvO now willing to capitulate


Still not enought land for DOM so conquest it is


(8) 1816AD
As expected


Normalized Score


---

Small comparison of the stats of the two ICS games:

ICS1 | Asoka | Inland Sea | Normal speed | 1755AD | DOM | 134640
ICS2 | Asoka | Inland Sea | Normal speed | 1816AD | CON | 124951

Save (turn before Vic) + Replay (only works until 625BC..)
View attachment ICS02 AD-1814.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment ICS02_AD-1816_22.CivBeyondSwordReplay

 

[mystyfly]

Additional info:

Spoiler :

^^ Says we have a Kill:Loss ratio of ~270:96, that means for every unit we lost we killed about 2.8 enemy units

---

Congratulations, team, we did it!
Thank you, Khan, for this second ICS game. Too bad you couldn't play... The more fun for us though

I'd really like to try this on Deity, this has also been Khan's goal he mentionned several times.

However we should find some more efficient ways (techpath, builds) to be able to compete with those so-called deities...
Also we'll need some more players, ATM, we were down to 4 (?). Shyuhe will miss the whole fun it seems, what about you, Khan?

If we play again I think we should play on Inland Sea again. I've come to like this map somehow, and it clearly fits our strat. But I'd like to play on Epic this time. We'll have more sets to play (I say stick to 10 turns/set) > more discussion > better play (hopefully). Also we'll get a bigger window for our draftles.
We can also consider trying to attack the first neighbor with drafted muskets, but this will depend on the surroundings. It will be more fun (to me) if we already fight in the medieval age.

Discuss..

 

[ungy]

Great job team!!
I think this really shows a few things--drafting is OP, the combination of religious wonders is huge--especially AP hammers.

I'd also say that especially on this type of map once you get a steamroller going you can win it pretty quick even with inferior units--not possible say with a continents map.

As for deity--I'm going to have to pass. I'm trying to get myself to where I can give it a go on a fair game with a good leader WITHOUT any variant.
I think there will be a huge difference but I wish you brave souls luck and will cheer you on if you get it going.

 

[mystyfly]

I'd also say that especially on this type of map once you get a steamroller going you can win it pretty quick even with inferior units--not possible say with a continents map.

The map script has been mentionned a couple of times. I just think on continents you lose momentum - when you have a certain amount of land and the other leaders are your vassals, you can't just go on slaughering, you need to wait a bit, whip a few galleons and load your units there. This is the only problem I see and I don't think it would've stopped us. For example we were never relying on pillaging money, our units have always been pretty far from going on strike.
Playing continents certainly takes longer though.

As for deity--I'm going to have to pass. I'm trying to get myself to where I can give it a go on a fair game with a good leader WITHOUT any variant.
I think there will be a huge difference but I wish you brave souls luck and will cheer you on if you get it going.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

First, hooray for the win, and thanks for taking the time, even with those ad-naseum turnsets. I was actually rather worried in the midgame, when we were about to lose AP and lost UoS, plus when I heart talk about Rifles vs Infantry. Sorry again for completely not playing the lion's share of my own SG.

Second, I am currently without a computer (for reasons we have already discussed), and now also without any phone access, because delivering mail is very difficult. This last mentioned of course complicates communicating with the people who are working on my laptop.

To spice it all up, I have six finals in less than a month and happen to have met a terribly cute girl. Life is, while very enjoyable, both complicated and extremely busy. Come summer, though, I'll certainly be back in action. If anybody wants to continue the ICS line, by all means feel free - else, I figure it might pop up around mid-June.

Ungy: While I by all means get your point, the idea behind ICS is not as much to be a crippling variant as it is to lead you towards a rather unusual and efficient style of play. Part of advancing to Deity could be to lift the strict limitations (i.e. enforced grid) which would make the game a lot easier. The first wars would be a lot more profitable with capturing cities. Picking up an AI-built UoS, SoL, GLib (..) or just a nice Confucian size 8 with Granary and Courthouse is ridiculously valuable.

Even so, the strategy has room for much more streamlining than we have been giving it. The chief challenge of Deity would probably be to pull off Oracle/AP/UoS/SM, avoiding early DoW and keeping up techwise.

 

[r_rolo1]

Technically we don't need Sankore: we lived pretty well without it in Immortal the only really important wonder for this is the AP ( maybe Oracle as well, mainly for the GP points ) that we already faced some dificulties to get in this one ( we needed to chop a handful of forests to get AP, remember ? )

Another issue is to maintain our vassals.... Fred in this game was dangerously close of release and if it had happened we would had faced a infantry vs tank war to resubdue him, a thing that it would had been a PITA, to say the least..... in Deity , with so much bonuses, it may become even harder.

 

[stuge]

Awesome. Good game!

One of the problems with deity is that getting the Oracle can be a "bit" difficult.
Other problems will follow shortly.

I don't think I'll jump into a deity ICS, but if you start the game and can't find enough players, I might change my mind.

 

[mystyfly]

@r_rolo: I think the oracle was the most important wonder: 1) religion -> shrine -> temples/monasteries 2) very many GPP EARLY where they're crucial

Another issue is to maintain our vassals.... Fred in this game was dangerously close of release and if it had happened we would had faced a infantry vs tank war to resubdue him, a thing that it would had been a PITA, to say the least..... in Deity , with so much bonuses, it may become even harder.

I think if we just keep the wars up long enought (unless we run out of troops) we should be able to keep our vassals. Fred's capitulation might've been a bit hasty.

I don't think I'll jump into a deity ICS, but if you start the game and can't find enough players, I might change my mind.

I think we might be looking fore more players But as rolo mentionned, the worst thing that can happen is losing and losing to deity AI with a variant rule like this is no shame.
BTW I like Khan's suggestion of not having to raze all the cities that don't fit. However the cities we found should follow the grid strictly I think.

I will open a thread tomorrow, if it's okay (else: please, go ahead ) where we can start our search for ppl. How many players do we want? 5? Also we can start discussing again. Do we want inland sea/asoka again (I don't see why not). Also are there arguments against epic?

 

[greenpeace]

lurker's comment:
Wow, very good job. Regarding your question about game speed, wouldn't the slower be the better? Because your army might have been obsolete if Fred had broken free and you had to speng a bunch of gold on upgrades when you played on normal, but on epic or marthon you get to play with each unit type for a longer time before they go obsolete, so the initial rifles would last longer. I'm not completely sure, but I think that it would also give a boost to drafting because the time it takes to get a troop from it will always be the same, but the time it takes to build a troop varies, giving you a benefit (although the benefit only occurs if you can still manage max drafting ever turn instead of waiting for population to regrow since the time it takes to regrow is longer).

 

[mystyfly]

actually I don't have time for doing anything until monday. If someone (rolo?) wants to open a thread, go ahead...