BTS FALLACY - Charlemagne has NEVER ruled the Holy Roman Empire !

[Marla_Singer]

To me, this complaint seems just to be desperate nationalism from a frenchman.

But you can chill, the rest of us don't believe Charlemagne was an evil german.

Including the Holy Roman Empire makes much sense to me, and placing Charlemagne at the head seems only reasonable as he's the nearest they ever got to a memorable leader...

Okay, so Gandhi has lead India to independence, and few times later Pakistan became independent from India. As such, I think Gandhi would be a great leader for the Pakistanese civilization. The logic to consider Charlemagne as the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire is just as flawed.

Charlemagne has develloped the Frankish kingdom he has ruled and the pope crowned him as ruler of the Western Roman Empire. Just because "Roman" is common between the name of both Empires don't make them the same ! Or probably you believe that the Eastern Roman Empire should have Julius Caesar as leader ?

 

[Rince]

Frankly, you suck in History.

I think most people got your point. No need for name-calling since that's exactly what kazapp probably wanted to provoke.

Btw. where exactly do you live? I'm moving to the 92 in september, might have some multiplayer fun.

Rince

 

[Pangur Bán]

Marla, you're right. Charlemagne was Emperor (of the Romans) later in life, but was King of the Franks primarily. He wasn't French ethnically, although I'd say being emperor of the Romans might have had some significance considering that the indigenous population of Gaul (vis-a-vis its Germanic rulers) were called Romani, Romans.

My principal reason for agreeing with you though is that the Holy Roman Empire refers to the Kingdom of Germany, which did not exist in Charlemagne's time. Only use of the term "Emperor" connects Charlemagne's realm with the High and Late Medieval HRE, a tenuous tie indeed. The best you can say is that the imperial style of the German kings had precedents in Charlemagne's coronation. France has stronger claim in one vital important sense: the Kingdom of the Franci was called Francia, the Latin word translated as "France". In a sense, the post-Verdun ethnic-split in the Frankish Empire left France with the name Francia and Germany with the title of Emperor, though that wasn't guaranteed until the later 10th century.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I think most people got your point. No need for name-calling since that's exactly what kazapp probably wanted to provoke.

You're right. I've removed that quote from my post.

Btw. where exactly do you live? I'm moving to the 92 in september, might have some multiplayer fun.

I live in Issy-les-Moulineaux. Unfortunately I don't play Civ4 in multiplayer. Sorry about this.

 

[onedreamer]

The French Kingdom is as much the heir of the Carolingian Empire as is the Holy Roman Empire.

Ah, LOL please com'on ? Since you're so historically accurate, can you tell us where is buried Charlemagne ? Where was the capital of his regin ? Nowhere in France, IIRC. Charlemagne built the basement of the HRE, I always wanted him in Civ as the ruler of HRE, he has all rights to be there, in Civ, as long as Julius Caesar is the ruler of a Roman Empire. Their stories are perfectly similar. You can object that he was never the ruler of HRE, but to be all so set up and yell scandal is an extreme exaggeration.

 

[cairnsy44]

is there any chance that Firaxis will change the name from HRE to Frankish Empire?

 

[Marla_Singer]

Marla, you're right. Charlemagne was Emperor (of the Romans) later in life, but was King of the Franks primarily. He wasn't French ethnically, although I'd say being emperor of the Romans might have had some significance considering that the indigenous population of Gaul (vis-a-vis its Germanic rulers) were called Romani, Romans.

The Frankish Kingdom is considered as having been founded by Clovis, who united the multiple Frankish tribes and conqueered most of today's France's territory. Though the kings were Germanic, the people they ruled were indeed christian Romans. And Clovis indeed converted to the christianism in 496 to get his power being accepted by locals.

My principal reason for agreeing with you though is that the Holy Roman Empire refers to the Kingdom of Germany, which did not exist in Charlemagne's time. Only use of the term "Emperor" connects Charlemagne's realm with the High and Late Medieval HRE, a tenuous tie indeed. The best you can say is that the imperial style of the German kings had precedents in Charlemagne's coronation. France has stronger claim in one vital important sense: the Kingdom of the Franci was called Francia, the Latin word translated as "France". In a sense, the post-Verdun ethnic-split in the Frankish Empire left France with the name Francia and Germany with the title of Emperor, though that wasn't guaranteed until the later 10th century.

This is true, but it wasn't made as such. At the Treaty of Verdun, what became the French kingdom was indeed called "Francia occidentalis", but what became the Holy Roman Empire (aka Medieval Germany) was still called "Francia Orientalis".

The name "Eastern Francia" only disappeared because Louis the German, who inherited of it at the Treaty of Verdun, also splitted it in 3 at his death. The 3 remaining parts of it being the Kingdoms of Bavaria, of Saxony, and of Swabia. I guess at that time it became complicate to called them "North-Eastern Francia", "Middle-Eastern Francia" and "South-Eastern Francia".

 

[Marla_Singer]

Ah, LOL please com'on ? Since you're so historically accurate, can you tell us where is buried Charlemagne ? Where was the capital of his regin ? Nowhere in France, IIRC. Charlemagne built the basement of the HRE, I always wanted him in Civ as the ruler of HRE, he has all rights to be there, in Civ, as long as Julius Caesar is the ruler of a Roman Empire. Their stories are perfectly similar. You can object that he was never the ruler of HRE, but to be all so set up and yell scandal is an extreme exaggeration.

Well, okay, so here's a map of the Frankish kingdom by the end of Clovis rule. In blue you can see the Frankish kingdom (511 AD).



As you can see, it was mainly based in today's France, even if the capital was indeed located at today's border between Belgium and Germany.


Okay so now here's a map of Charlemagne's conquests. In blue, you can see the Frankish kingdom as it was at the death of Pepin the Short, Charlemagne's father (768 AD). In orange you can see territories conqueered by Charlemagne (811 AD). And finally in yellow, you can see tributary states.




Finally here's a map of showing the divided of the Empire in three parts at the Treaty of Verdun (843 AD), and the following conquest of Lothair's middle Francia kingdom by his two brothers at the Treaty of Mersen in (870 AD).



As you can see both Louis the German, ruling Francia Orientalis, and Charles the bald, ruling Francia Occidentalis, are grand sons of Charlemagne. As such, the French Kingdom and the Holy Roman Empire which have raised later are offshoots of the Carolingian Empire. We can't consider one as being more legitimate than the other.

 

[onedreamer]

As you can see both Louis the German, ruling Francia Orientalis, and Charles the bald, ruling Francia Occidentalis, are grand sons of Charlemagne. As such, the French Kingdom and the Holy Roman Empire which have raised later are offshoots of the Carolingian Empire. We can't consider one as being more legitimate than the other.

If we can't then I don't see why yelling at the scandal. Look at that map, 2 of those 3 reigns will form the HRE. It's certainly not the best historical accuracy but we can find even worse cases throught the Civilization series. Let me add that History is ALL BUT precise. History is told in different ways from different sides. No doubt, knowing the "french cousins" in France it's told that Charlemagne was the father of the French Kingdom, but in Italy he's widely known as the first Holy Roman Emperor , and I personally don't give a damn if that is 100% accurate or not, it's certainly as close to reality as him being the founder of the French Kingdom. Look at this picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e-by-Durer.jpg/270px-Charlemagne-by-Durer.jpg : I can see at the top left the future symbol of the HRE and at the top right the future symbol of France. Again, HRE ruled by Charlemagne might not be 100% accurate, but your overreaction is much more absurd than Firaxis' choice. I don't know if you realize it, but you and a host of other ppl are yelling scandal for a simple terminology, in fact Charlemagne was crowned as "Imperator Augustus", it's not HRE but at the end of the day, it's just a matter of how high of themselves his successors thought and wanted to be called
If I'm not wrong he is still the first emperor crowned by the Pope, and for the records, before the coronation, he called himself King of Franks AND Longobards.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well, that's where you got things wrong Onedreamer. I've never claimed Charlemagne should be considered as a French leader !

I just ask you to understand that for the same reasons you would be pissed to see it appear as French, I would be pissed to see him appear as German (or as leader of the HRE which is the same).

Hence, if Charlemagne should appear in the Civilization game, something which is far from being a bad idea, then it can't be as anything else than as the leader of the Franks. Actually, that's what he was after all. I hope you can at least agree on this.

 

[TheLastOne36]

hehe, indeed

For those of you who may not know it, German is the third official language of Belgium, besides Dutch (=Flemish) and French. This is because there are about 50.000 German speaking people living in the area near the German border. This area is known as "Ost-Belgien" (East-Belgium), and it was a part of Germany until 1919. It was given to Belgium as compensation for the World War I, as part of the Treaty of Versailles.

Noticed how i said that Swiss and Belgium are slightly german? Probably a more appropriate word is partly. But i did mean what you said.

 

[Drago Askani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ho/HolyRoma.html

 

[Onagan]

can you tell us where is buried Charlemagne ?

Yes, it's remains are in the Aachener Dom. Everybody knows that.

 

[onedreamer]

Well, that's where you got things wrong Onedreamer. I've never claimed Charlemagne should be considered as a French leader !

I didn't say "french leader" heh... or can you quote it ? I wrote father of the french kingdom, and I gathered it from your own words:

The French Kingdom is as much the heir of the Carolingian Empire as is the Holy Roman Empire.

I'm sorry but I'm French, and I can tell you that it does matter for me to see all of a sudden Charlemagne being removed from the History of my country. At least Hannibal was from Carthages and Gandhi was from India. The same would be true with Joan of Arch being from France.

I just ask you to understand that for the same reasons you would be pissed to see it appear as French, I would be pissed to see him appear as German (or as leader of the HRE which is the same).

But he was german. As I already said, Franks are a germanic tribe, and the fact that Clovis conquered the whole Gallia doesn't change that, the capital of the Frankish Kingdom was still in Germany.

Hence, if Charlemagne should appear in the Civilization game, something which is far from being a bad idea, then it can't be as anything else than as the leader of the Franks.

I don't agree, first for a technical reason: there are already France and the Celts, heavily based on the Gauls, in the game, second because Franks were not a civilization and can be well represented by Celts, and third because as I said, at least in Italy Charlemagne is widely (popularily) known as the first HRE. The Holy Roman Emperor was an Emperor crowned by the Popes, and he was the first such emperor, over the course of centuries the position and the name changed, but he was the beginning of it all, so I think it's plausible for him to be leading HRE, as long as JC is leading Rome. You may think differently, but in the end this is just a game and your opinion is just an opinion, not an absolute truth.

Also, as a reminder, he was king of Franks AND Longobards prior to becoming emperor, and the HRE includes a good part of Italy, so it's not solely germanic.

 

[Ishon]

Yes, people are idiots and they'd rather have yet another fallacy in Civ than see Barbarossa, who they didn't learn about at American schools.

 

[Jerrymander]

I still think Tamerlane should be put in, not these boring people, like Abraham Lincoln, Charlemagne, and Sitting Bull.

 

[Monty Python Ni]

The French Kingdom is as much the heir of the Carolingian Empire as is the Holy Roman Empire.

I'm sorry but I'm French, and I can tell you that it does matter for me to see all of a sudden Charlemagne being removed from the History of my country. At least Hannibal was from Carthages and Gandhi was from India. The same would be true with Joan of Arch being from France.

Charlemagne IS NOT from the Holy roman empire. He's a FRANKISH KING.

Would you consider Queen Victoria as Australian ? Would you consider George II of England as American ? I'm sorry but this does not make sense at all !

Weren't the Franks Germanic though?

 

[franlato]

I agree that it's a falacy but it's a game after all, not a history book. What is the omen scenario then, an absolute sin???? Nobody ever said that a game had to be 100% true to history. It's just there to be fun. Charlemagne never built a spaceship and I can tell ya that he we do that multiple time in the next months

 

[Sansevero]

as long as JC is leading Rome.

I'm not arguing one way or the other on Charlemagne and HRE, but your argument about Julius Caesar is odd: JC did lead Rome. If you're making the point that he was leader before Rome was officially (by our modern view) an empire (Principate), but that Rome is sometimes called "Roman Empire" in the game, I would point out that every civ in the game is named according to this scheme ("adjective" Empire), at least in the Civilopedia.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Let's face it. Fireaxis wanted Charlemagne not HRE.

And if they really wanted to include them, why not include him as a non-civ related leader. As the new Matching system between civ and leader, You could've made Charlemagne with Germany, France and for all you care, the romans!

Instead of adding HRE the above idea is excellent in my opinion.