[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

Available for download now... Wolfshanze Mod v2.65...

Nothing too major or earth shattering... if you worry about bandwidth and download times, it's not worth your time, but if you like to have all the latest models and have good internet connections, feel free to download... it should be compatible with any v2.6x saved game if you have one in progress. I'm holding-back my "major upgrade" for v2.7 (which will break saved-game compatability) at some later time/date.

v2.65 is what I've been playing for a week or so... I'm holding back future changes till I finish my own saved game!


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New in v2.65
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Carriers now have a modest AA ability
Early Fighters can no-longer bomb city defenses or destroy tile improvements, but they get a 50% combat bonus against airships now.
Oil now a pre-req for Airships.

New models/skins for:
Austrian Infantry
Austrian Machine Gunner
American Iowa class Pre-Dreadnought

 

[Wolfshanze]

Ah. Some issues/ideas I'm unsure you have thought of

BTW Poland leaders?
Lech Walesa
Josef Poniatowski?

Still hoping for Maria Theresa to pop up.

Lech Walesa will definately be in... haven't thought of others as of yet...

Maria Theresa would show up if I had a good animated LH... the one currently available looks like Queen Victoria with a differant outfit... I won't bother for that LH.

 

[Ninja2]

Maybe I'll release one-more v2.6x mod (that works with current saved games and includes the new models I previously mentioned) then release a v2.7 with my new ideas (most of which are going to break saved-game compatability... some new naval promotions, maybe a new aircraft, and probably Poland).

Do you mean a new aircraft type, or "just" a new model?

By the way, I respectfully think that you're going in the wrong direction with regards to the oil requirements for air units. If a civ has no oil, it's in enough trouble as it is... but you've also pushed the SAM units further out in the tech tree. SAM requires Rocketry + Satellites in your mod. So if you have no oil, you can forget about any defense against air attacks for a while. I actually suggest going the other direction, and allowing both airships, early fighters, and perhaps even early bombers, without oil. Or conversely, allow some flak units to be built earlier than the SAM's, with Industrialism + Artillery for example?

All in my humble opinion, of course.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Do you mean a new aircraft type, or "just" a new model?

No... I mean an all-new aircraft TYPE... but I haven't commited to it yet... it would be an early aircraft, not a late one... I have to look into some XML things to see if I can get it to do what I want. More of a "that's kinda cool" thing, not a "wow, what a game-changer". If I add it, I think people would like it, if I didn't, nobody would miss it. In either case, it's not a game changer... that's all I'll say for now... I'm quietly thinking about it right now but haven't decided.

By the way, I respectfully think that you're going in the wrong direction with regards to the oil requirements for air units. If a civ has no oil, it's in enough trouble as it is... but you've also pushed the SAM units further out in the tech tree. SAM requires Rocketry + Satellites in your mod. So if you have no oil, you can forget about any defense against air attacks for a while. I actually suggest going the other direction, and allowing both airships, early fighters, and perhaps even early bombers, without oil. Or conversely, allow some flak units to be built earlier than the SAM's, with Industrialism + Artillery for example?

Folks still whining about getting pummeled from the air, eh? I'm never... and I do mean NEVER going to go the route of making it easy for folks without airpower of their own... sorry, but if you want to sit on the ground and think you're safe without an air force of your own, the Wolfshanze mod is NOT for you... I'm not making this mod to make everyone happy... I'm making it to make ME happy, and I'm sharing it with anyone else who has the same vision of the game with me... this is NOT a community project to make everyone happy. If I hear a suggestion that I like, I'll implement it... but if I don't agree with it, it's not going to get added.

Simply put, my vision is for airpower to be important. If you have it, you're ahead... if you don't, you're behind... that's my vision, and that's the way the Wolfshanze mod will be... I'm not going to willy-nilly hand out all sorts of ground power to counter airpower... the very doctrine of air superiority is to control the skies and make wars easier... you control the skies through airpower, not ground power. I spent 20 years of my life in Air Force logistics... I know that control of the air can only be achieved through decisive airpower, and if you surrender the skies, you surrender initiative and control.

Now onto Civ4 specifics...

I can't seem to win with Airships... folks complain incessently that the AI cheats by getting Airships too soon and too easily and that they get pounded by airships for too long... I've since done TWO changes to reduce the reign of airships... 1) requiring COMBUSTION along with Physics makes airships come later... you should be happy... 2) requiring OIL makes it harder to get them (and that includes the AI)... so by all means, you ground lubbers who just want to sit on the ground with no air force and not worry about the AI blasting you with Airships should be ABSOLUTELY THRILLED with the latest change I did. Yet, I add Oil as a requirement and I get complaints.

Well sorry folks... once again, I'm making changes that I think are better and/or more realistic... not sure how-else you get a combustion engine to work without an oil product... so that's a requirement just the same as any other airpower issue... oil has ALWAYS been a requirement to aircraft (from WWI to Jets), so I'm not sure why anyone is acting like I'm doing something horrible by bringing in the ONLY air unit that didn't require oil to require it.

On SAM units... boo-hoo... I don't recall seeing a whole lot of SAM unit infantry in real history until after WWII... so I made it that way in-game. No more running around in WWI or WWII with SAM infantry... too bad... real history dealt without them, you can too... here's a hint... build an Air Force!

So if you have no oil, you can forget about any defense against air attacks for a while.

Yeah... good point... if you have no oil, you can forget about defense... you nailed that right on the head... guess you better get oil, huh? Drill for it, trade for it, or go to war for it. Hmmm... sounds like the real world to me.

I see no problem with what you just stated, but thanks for pointing it out!

I actually suggest going the other direction, and allowing both airships, early fighters, and perhaps even early bombers, without oil

Hmmm... steam-powered airplanes? Sorry... this isn't warhammer... I'm trying to make this realistic, not a fantasy game... you might prefer playing one of the fantasy mods with steam-powered aircraft, but sorry, I'm requiring oil... because... well because that's what's needed in the real world to fly.

By the way, I respectfully think that you're insane for thinking I'm going in the wrong direction with regards to the oil requirements for air units. Oil runs the world... I see no reason why Civ4 shouldn't reflect that.

From all the above discussions, there should be two conclusions folks come to regarding the Wolfshanze Mod...

1) If you don't have oil, you're screwed... better drill for it, trade for it or go to war for it... otherwise, your civ is a 3rd-world nobody without oil (sounds right to me).

2) Without an air force of your own, expect to get pounded by an enemy air force... no immunity from ground-based units (sounds right to me... I don't know of too many nations in WWII who were immune to enemy airstrikes without oil or airpower).

Ninja... if the above upsets you... wait till I start requiring iron sources to build modern ships!

Seriously Ninja... if the oil thing upsets you, you may wish to start considering removing any and all resource requirements for all units... because you're pretty screwed in ancient ages without copper and pretty screwed in the medieval ages without iron, and YES, you're pretty screwed in the modern age without oil. Sounds to me that if the whole oil-thing upsets you, you would be upset about the copper and iron things too.

Personally, I've NEVER been without oil in any of my games... because I always acquire a source of my own... you should know where the oil is before it's needed to win wars. Using an industrial-age "coal" navy, you can go anywhere in the world with your rifleman and go secure a source if you don't have a local source, or if you're a huge peace-nik, trade for it and stay out of wars!

Frankly Ninja... I've seen nothing you said that makes me reconsider my decisions... in fact, everything you have said only reinforces why I did it in the first place. I don't care for small-caliber MG units that take-down Zeppelins, SAM troops in WWII, or aircraft that fly with steam power... sounds like fantasy civ to me, and I want nothing to do with that... in my version, oil and airpower rule the modern world... gee... that sounds like real life, and it's something that works well in Civ4... if only you're not afraid to build an air force or obtain an oil source by any means possible.

All in my humble opinion, of course.

 

[Ninja2]

I think that's the longest reply I've received on ...any... internet forum!

You've made your point about realism, fair enough. I'm more concerned with balance, which is why I make the suggestions I do. There's absolutely no whining from me. If I can't beat the AI, I'll play a lower level!

I prefer to think of the ressources in CIV as strategic gaming elements, not real-world ressources. There's plenty of things in CIV which cannot realisticly be achieved or constructed without ANY oil - yet all civilizations can e.g. build mechanized infantry and guided missiles without oil. The point is achieving balance between realism and fun. You need more oil to fuel a mechanized army than you do to run a zeppelin, or a Sopwith Camel squadron, by the way...

I don't care for small-caliber MG units that take-down Zeppelins, SAM troops in WWII, or aircraft that fly with steam power... sounds like fantasy civ to me, and I want nothing to do with that.

These things I've never suggested. I do not disagree with your decision to e.g. move SAM infantry up the tech tree, I'm just suggesting... well, you know what. No point in beating a dead horse.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I think that's the longest reply I've received on ...any... internet forum!

I like to type... don't want my motives to be confused.

You've made your point about realism, fair enough. I'm more concerned with balance, which is why I make the suggestions I do. There's absolutely no whining from me. If I can't beat the AI, I'll play a lower level!

I prefer to think of the ressources in CIV as strategic gaming elements, not real-world ressources. There's plenty of things in CIV which cannot realisticly be achieved or constructed without ANY oil

I don't think gameplay or balance is affected... the AI plays by the same rules too.

I would think if anything my changes might even help the player not the AI...

- yet all civilizations can e.g. build mechanized infantry and guided missiles without oil.

You're right... probably need to change Mech Inf and a few other units to need oil!

 

[manooly]

Hello! I am new to this mod. It look great. Is this mod meant to be started in the Ancient Era like a normal game? I'll start to come across your new untis as time progresses correct? What is the best way to play this mod? Should I play it on HUGE/Marathon mode with a Hemispheres map? I'm looking for any suggestions to start a game.

Thanks for your time!

- manooly

 

[GeneralMatt]

How about just making the earliest fighter not require oil? This way if a country does not have any oil, or any way of getting any, they still can build some sort of fighters?

 

[Wolfshanze]

How about just making the earliest fighter not require oil? This way if a country does not have any oil, or any way of getting any, they still can build some sort of fighters?

Lemme guess... hippies won't let you drill for oil in your homeland and the peace party won't let you have any wars for oil?

How many nations in WWI built fighters without any oil at all?

Don't think so. I didn't even change this... WWI fighters have ALWAYS required oil in the Wolfshanze mod.

I see ZERO problems with the oil situation... maybe I should just allow axemen without copper and swordsman without iron too? What is it with you people?

Oh... and yes... the Wolfshanze mod can be started like any random game in the Ancient era.

 

[Agent327]

Sounds like a very good idea!

 

[mamba]

Hm, strange that this oil thing causes such a stir, Fighters in CIV need oil too and I see noone complaining

Whether Airships should really need oil can be discussed (from a realism perspective they should), but Fighters (and Wolf's early variant) definitely should.

 

[GeneralMatt]

Wolfsanze, do remember that with the axeman/swordsman idea you have more options. Number one, you have double the chance of getting a resource (Copper, or iron, though Iron is needed for swords) two, you can build archers and later longbowmen. With you not wanting to put land AA in too much, it really limits what a person can do against aircraft if they do not have oil (And cannot obtain any).
Besides, you can just look at it as they are importing just enough oil to keep their aeroplanes in the sky, or even importing other nationalities aircraft.. If anything this is encouraging aerial warfare in that you are making it available to all. Maybe even just add a very weak version of the WWI fighter that requires no oil.

 

[mamba]

Wolfsanze, do remember that with the axeman/swordsman idea you have more options. Number one, you have double the chance of getting a resource (Copper, or iron, though Iron is needed for swords) two, you can build archers and later longbowmen.

I never had a game in which I did not manage to get an oil resource, I always find that out pretty soon and then declare a war if needed

Not having iron however put me through a lot of trouble a few times as that is a major setback very early in the game, by oil I have a sufficient strength / tech advance to not have any problems from this.

My worst iron setback was when I started in a location with no iron anywhere nearby. Neither I nor my two direct neighbours had any, only their two neighbours in turn had. It took quite some time for my archers to capture one city with access to iron - I agreed to peace right thereafter Unfortunately the other iron civ declared war in the next turn and that city was right at their border and about a distance of 3 cities away from my territory (the rest not yet being settled in), I just managed to hold on to it by sheer luck of the roll.

 

[GeneralMatt]

I do understand that, and normally I would agree from where you guys are coming from. You DO need oil to run airplanes. I am thinking more for the AI. And I am only saying the WWI Fighter, not the WWI Bomber, not even the Blimp. Though I know my reasoning might be wrong.
One thought on the Land based AA, remember that if they intercept enemy aeroplanes, they are not necessarily shooting the aircraft down, they are scaring them off, and maybe shooting a couple down. I know no Blimps may have ever been taken down by a land AA thing, but do you not think that in a moment of need, people would innovate? Even enough just to scare those Blimps off for a while?

Anyways, what I really think you should do Wolfshanze, is get GO's QR scripts, that would make it so much more in depth. When it is done, I believe that you would actually need oil to keep your planes flying, not actually to build them..

 

[Connery]

Just a question, maybe it's a bit off topic but here goes: I'd like to change directly on the mod the amount of turns needed to complete certain improvements (roads, farms, etc); where and what should I edit? Plus, I reckon this would mean making a backup of the original file so I don't mess it up when I try to update the mod.

Cheers

 

[Ninja2]

I spent 20 years of my life in Air Force logistics... I know that control of the air can only be achieved through decisive airpower, and if you surrender the skies, you surrender initiative and control.

On SAM units... boo-hoo... I don't recall seeing a whole lot of SAM unit infantry in real history until after WWII... so I made it that way in-game. No more running around in WWI or WWII with SAM infantry... too bad... real history dealt without them, you can too... here's a hint... build an Air Force!

Too bad you didn't fly helicopters in Korea, or Vietnam, for that matter even in Somalia, Iraq or Afghanistan. For those guys, ground based anti-aircraft artillery was a very real threat. In the Second Raid on Schweinfurt in WWII, more B-17's were shot down by AA than by Luftwaffe fighters. No one is arguing against the virtues or advantages of having your own airforce, but if you're after realism more than anything, you ought to recognize that AAA has its place in the game. It's just a matter of modelling it to accurately reflect what it could and could NOT do...

 

[Catan_Settler]

I think a sensible and realistic solution would be to add ground based anti-aircraft guns. Put them at artillery, or maybe flight and artillery, either way would work... Give them a low strength and a huge bonus against aircraft. While you can argue for the realism of all air units requiring oil, the fact that you have pushed SAM infantry further down the timeline *has* created a balance issue here, so why not fix it with some flak units which also happen to be incredibly historic. And please, I don't think anyone needs some frustrated lecture about copper and iron... Nobody brought that up. They do have a point though that the way you have tweaked SAMs and made all air units require oil has created a bit of an imbalance that does in fact become an insurmountable obstacle in some games... How realistic is it that there are all these new air units but not a single AA gun??

 

[Wolfshanze]

Too bad you didn't fly helicopters in Korea, or Vietnam, for that matter even in Somalia, Iraq or Afghanistan. For those guys, ground based anti-aircraft artillery was a very real threat. In the Second Raid on Schweinfurt in WWII, more B-17's were shot down by AA than by Luftwaffe fighters. No one is arguing against the virtues or advantages of having your own airforce, but if you're after realism more than anything, you ought to recognize that AAA has its place in the game. It's just a matter of modelling it to accurately reflect what it could and could NOT do...

Now wait a minute... you don't want to be realistic with oil needs, but you want to be realistic with AAA? Now you're cherry-picking!!!

Anyways, I have NEVER denied AAA (Anti-Aircraft Artillery) is effective... what I questioned was the lightweight small-calibre MGs are not effective AA. I've been arguing against making stupid small-calibre MGs as effective AA units (which several people have requested)... on AAA (ARTILLERY), sure AAA can be effective... but for the very reasons you guys keep saying I should ditch oil, or ditch this or ditch that for gameplay reasons, I say... poo-poo on AAA... because for gameplay reasons I think there's already too many stupid AA units, too much focus on ground combat, and too much nerfing of airpower.

I'm perfectly fine with saying AIRPOWER should decide control of the skies for GAMEPLAY reasons, as well as realism (sure... the Germans had a lot of AAA and shot down plenty of American aircraft... but you forgot what those German cities looked like after WWII ended... doesn't look to me like the AAA saved German cities).

You guys can argue the point all you want... I've made my point and my purpose very clear... I did make this mod for me... I share it with those that have the same opinion as me. I have a vision... I believe that airpower in Civ4 should be decided in the air, not on the ground... argue all you want, I'm going to focus the Wolfshanze Mod on deciding airpower in the air... you can disagree with me, you can use a differant mod or change it yourself... you're not going to hurt my feelings... in my personal opinion, airpower has been made nearly useless in default Civ4 and has been severely nerfed... I'm doing what I can to make it relevant and make it decided in the air... my changes have been to increase both the importance and the power in airforces in Civ4.

On Oil... it's what makes the modern world go round... politically correct or not, countries DO go to war over oil. And if you're going to complain "blah, blah, blah I can't build an airforce because I have no oil"... then too bad... trade for it, drill for it, or (what I often do) GO TO WAR FOR OIL. You have plenty of 'heads-up' before oil is actually needed to find where it is, who has it, then to go and get it... use some of those spiffy coal-fired ironclads and pre-dreadnoughts to gain control of the seas and land your rifleman on foreign shores and take the oil you will need in the future... there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to do so.

As for the AI and needing oil... too bad for him too... in my current game, the Persians had two oil fields on a foreign continent... I already had my own oil source, but I was at war with the Persians... I decided to cripple their economy and their means to make war, so I targetted taking over the Persian Oil Fields so they couldn't fight me in the air... guess what... it worked!

I remember the Americans targetting German oil sources in WWII, and guess what... it worked then too!

Wow... funny how with an open mind and a nod towards history you can make Civ4 play-out a lot like history!

'nuf said!

 

[Ninja2]

Alright, this is going to be my final word in this particular debate...

Effectively, your mod (which I still think is damn fine!) creates a situation where, to beat the AI in the modern period, you need to beeline to the airunits, cut off his oil and watch him go down in flames as you pummel him from the skies. Any game (or mod) design decision, which gives the player a strategic opportunity (in this case, the airforce as a weapon) which has no counters, is a poor design decision.

As for the AI and needing oil... too bad for him too... in my current game, the Persians had two oil fields on a foreign continent... I already had my own oil source, but I was at war with the Persians... I decided to cripple their economy and their means to make war, so I targetted taking over the Persian Oil Fields so they couldn't fight me in the air... guess what... it worked!

And guess what... that strategy will work in every single game, against every single AI. The AI is not smart enough to counter it, or even realize HOW precious those oilfields are. Where's the fun in that?

 

[mamba]

Effectively, your mod (which I still think is damn fine!) creates a situation where, to beat the AI in the modern period, you need to beeline to the airunits, cut off his oil and watch him go down in flames as you pummel him from the skies.

no, you do not need to go that route, it works, but you can also win by sheer brute force. Taking oilfields is the easy / strategic way, building airforce to counter his airforce is ok, building enough ground units to still take its cities is brute force.

The last one actually is what I regularily do in civ 4 as the airforce just is a waste of resources to me (doesn't feel like brute force in civ to me, more like the smart way due to the inability of the airforce to achieve just about anything). With Wolf's changes I will think twice about that approach

Any game (or mod) design decision, which gives the player a strategic opportunity (in this case, the airforce as a weapon) which has no counters, is a poor design decision.

And guess what... that strategy will work in every single game, against every single AI. The AI is not smart enough to counter it, or even realize HOW precious those oilfields are. Where's the fun in that?

There only is one AI, used by many civs

That is the downside of making it realistic. As Wolf said, in the real world you couldn't do anything about it either if you lost your airforce and / or access to oil.

This is a deliberate design decision, some like it, others apparently don't.