[BTS Total Mod] Thomas' War

[turingmachine]

After playing around with the new version, some random thoughts on traits from me:

Still not satisfied with Mercantile. I've come to the conclusion that the trait really doesnt work well - if you balance it for coastal starts it gets completely useless on non-coastal starts. If you balance it for the latter it is vastly overpowered for coastal starts. You'll get 4-5 Hammers and Food as early as early mid game. My suggestion is to either scrap the trait completely or change it completely. Two options I thought of:

a) Make the bonus dependent on the number of land tiles in the BFC. For instance, give 1% bonus per land tile. This prevents exploiting the trait which is easy to do right now (you can build cities wherever you want, even on 1-tile-islands, as long as maintanence costs allow expansion). And of course it will make inland cities better suited than coastal cities, which balances nicely considering the trade route enhancing buildings you can build in coastal cities. Historically speaking, it represents the boost to economy cities gain from the land and villages in their surroundings.
Of course, I have no idea if it is possible to code this.

b) Make the bonus independent of the commerce you gain from trade routes. Make it instead dependent on something that is (mostly) independend from coastal or non-coastal. It could be the pure number of trade routes a city has. Or, maybe better, the size of the cities it has trade routes to. For example:
Combined size of trade route connected cities /// bonus
15 /// 1%
30 /// 2%
45 /// 3%
60 /// 4%
80 /// 5%

These are just random numbers to illustrate the idea. Coastal cities would still be better since you get more trade routes and get them more easily, but to a lesser extent than it is now - no harbours, no custom houses, no overseas trading bonus. And the bonus mostly scales with time and does so at a slower pace. So you dont end up with the maximum bonus as early as in the middle ages.

That's my ideas for Mercantile. I hope you find some of it useful. As it is now the discrepancy between coastal and non-coastal seems an unbridgeable gap to me.

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I am currently trying to exploit Diplomatic with an espionage/cottage economy and I am surprised how well it works. With the defensive bonus you added the trait might be fine as it is. The only minor problem I see is that both of its buildings only help espionage and will probably only be built if you focus on espionage. A small non-espionage bonus like the Jail has might help here. But I don't think it is necessary, just a nice little boost to make it more appealing to non-spies.

Strategic, Agricultural and Scientific seem fine as they are (though admittedly I haven played much with Sci). I found that I like Agri almost the most of your new traits (except Merc...) as its early boost is significant. Depending on your starting location it potentially boosts growth and production and research. Thisis highly useful! Double production speed for Granary would make sense, but it is already taken.

This leaves us with Nationalistic - a trait both my friend and me are very underwhelmed by. Two of its bonuses mainly counter war weariness. The problem with this is that we almost never experience war weariness anyway. Even when going for a domination victory this never was a big problem. Personally I usually go with Police State anyway, my friend never does - but if he gets some unhappiness it is only like 1 or 2 citizens not working and only for a short time - and this only happens in mid to late game, vitually exclusively when cities are 15-20 big and you choose not to use emacipation while others do. No need to deal with this, it is insignificant. So in short, 2/3 of this trait's bonuses arent bonuses in our games. Suggestion: Scrap the -25% bonus and replace it with something like "no unhappiness from drafting and emancipation".

Overall I think your traits work very well and only need minor tweaking if any changes at all. The exception is Mercantile which I think is broken.

Nat is sort of like Org in that it's more powerful on higher difficulty levels. Actually Nat and Org overlap which is what I don't like. Although having No Upkeep Police State and Representation is really nice I admit (this again overlaps with Org) you - and I agree with this - added a No Upkeep civic for every category with your mod. Granted this would force you to play a certain civic but it does inadvertently nerf both Org and Nat. So I have to agree with Falk that this trait could use some buffing. Then again, I'll admit maybe the trait is fine and it just doesn't fit my play style. I'm one of the few people that like Pro but I know most of this board will say it's horrible and needs a buff.

You said in an earlier post that you forgot to switch Exp from 50% workers back to 25%, I think this is a good idea.

I think Agr is fine, even with that small bug it currently has. If you can't fix the bug directly (I don't know how the code works) you could always make it give extra food when the granary is built. That way even if it doesn't work that one time the city is grown, in the long run it all evens out.

I think Sci depends on game speed. Quick its overpowered, Normal its great, Epic its good, Marathon it needs a buff. Double Observatories like Falk suggested is a good idea, though I'm also not against your earlier idea of moving the golden age to renaissance and giving a free tech in modern. It's strong but having to wait till the modern era balances that out.

Str I think is perfectly balanced, plays different. Then again it's another one of those traits that has to fit a play style. I can see some people calling it useless. The extra gold at game start - something I at first ignored - is actually a lot better bonus that I first gave credit and goes a long way in terms of balancing out this trait.

Dip... I think Dip is fine, kinda. See--as probably evidence above--I'm on the fence about traits that fit a certain play style. I think I'm fine with traits that very streamlined and don't give general bonus, so Dip helps espionage. If people don't like this I would normally say well then don't play a Dip leader if you don't want to do espionage BUT the problem is some civs only have a Dip leader and it would be nice to be able to play those civs without resorting to the any leader option. Still, I don't have anything against traits that only fit a certain playstyle.

Now for Mer. Me and Falk have gotten into arguments about it in the past. I'm going to say my opinion on it has slightly changed but I still don't entirely agree with Falk. First, I have no idea how to code so I can't really give suggestions. Okay, I don't mind if the trait is only balanced for coastal cities and useless with land cities. I think this is fine. It's a trait that encourages you to play a certain way--a more coastal, naval orientated game (this is different than forcing espionage like dip). I think at 10% it would be fine. 10 commerce per trade route is impossible really before mid game. Then at mid game (say you'd have around 4 routes a city) 4 food and hammers is fine and it gets stronger later on, plus this is the same time the Lighthouse and Colossus would be going obsolete. I think this is balanced out by the fact that early game the trait is almost no benefit (just compare to the arguments about Agr, which admittedly has no real bonus mid game... a bonus that comes early is a lot better than one that comes around the end of the medieval start of the renaissance) and only works on coastal cities which can be blockaded. I think the main problem with Mer is that it stacks with Barter Economy. Forcing that civic isn't that big of a deal because its no upkeep and I'd gladly take almost 8 more food and hammers a city than the rest of the economy civic bonuses. So my suggestions are simply lower it by 5% AND make it not stack with Barter. I've tried playing as non Mer leaders and keeping Barter all game (to simulate my suggestions) and it seemed to work fair and balanced. Other suggestions--again because I don't know how difficult it would be to code Falk's suggestions--maybe make it only give food OR hammers, or limit how many trade routes ti affects. I think keeping it only balanced for coastal and almost useless for land is a good thing and would hate to see this flavor lost.

 

[Falk]

@turingmachine

BUT the problem is some civs only have a Dip leader and it would be nice to be able to play those civs without resorting to the any leader option

I first read your thoughts about Merc and was going to post this as a reply, but I see, you've done it yourself. It is my main objection to specialized traits. But I think I can agree that it isn't that important. There are so many Civs, I don't have to play every one of them.

This being said, balancing Merc for coastal cities seems ok. However, if it is possible to find a way to balance it for any map type / starting location, I'd prefer the latter.

I agree on Str - the extra money at the start translates directly to more research since you can keep the research slider at 100% for longer. I especially like Vercingetorix - starting with size 2 cities and extra money is damn good. He's so fast, especially if you can grab Stonehenge.

€:

10 commerce per trade route is impossible really before mid game.

Afaik, the bonus is calculated based on the total trade route commerce as opposed to the commerce of single trade routes. That is what I figured out, but then again, I am horrible at maths.

@tsentom1
I like the 50% bonus for Expansive, I don't consider this trait too powerful. Double production speed for monasteries seemed like a good idea, too. The only thing I wasn't sure about was the cheaper banks for Fin (esp. with the English).

 

[tsentom1]

Thanks for the feedback both of you, you've given me a lot to think about.

First, Falk, what do you think of turingmachine's point about it stacking with Barter? I have to run a test game to see how 10% no barter works out. The thing is a lot of your suggestions (which are great) are really hard to code -or- not that hard to code but the one that checks how much land would actually cause the game to run about 25% slower so not really an option. So I might just have to re-make the bonus or remove the entire trait.

Fin used to give double banks, so I could also remove the double customs house. I don't know, 10% no customs house, no barter. Of course this makes non-coastal cities useless which I both like and dislike. I like the flavor it adds but flavor should never come before gameplay.

The population / number of trade routes idea is actually really interesting. You need SDK changes to make it work with food and production, but another bonus that can be tied to that could work. I just need now to think of the bonus.

Just trying to think of a compromise first before resorting to a massive over-haul of the code.

I'm actually underwhelmed with Nat myself (and technically all three bonuses really help with war weariness as it makes Police State have No Upkeep) so it's potentially overkill for something not that big of a deal anymore. See I made Nat before they seriously nerfed war weariness with BTS 3.17 (that patch basically cut it in half). I actually didn't like that change and have thought about bringing it back to 3.13 levels. Having it tie into slavery (I wish drafting as that would thematically fit but drafting is hard coded into the SDK) might be good.

Speaking of Dips double buildings... it actually (and always has in my mod) also gives double speed for the Apostolic Palace and the U.N. The game just doesn't say double speed wonders in the trait box for various reasons. (Coincidently, Spi in BTS and thus also my mod gives double speed for Cristo Redentor).

Thanks again for the feedback, always a great help.

 

[tsentom1]

@turingmachine

I first read your thoughts about Merc and was going to post this as a reply, but I see, you've done it yourself. It is my main objection to specialized traits. But I think I can agree that it isn't that important. There are so many Civs, I don't have to play every one of them.

This being said, balancing Merc for coastal cities seems ok. However, if it is possible to find a way to balance it for any map type / starting location, I'd prefer the latter.

I agree on Str - the extra money at the start translates directly to more research since you can keep the research slider at 100% for longer. I especially like Vercingetorix - starting with size 2 cities and extra money is damn good. He's so fast, especially if you can grab Stonehenge.

€:

Afaik, the bonus is calculated based on the total trade route commerce as opposed to the commerce of single trade routes. That is what I figured out, but then again, I am horrible at maths.

@tsentom1
I like the 50% bonus for Expansive, I don't consider this trait too powerful. Double production speed for monasteries seemed like a good idea, too. The only thing I wasn't sure about was the cheaper banks for Fin (esp. with the English).

Ah, Falk you replied as I was typing my response so forgive me if anything in my previous post overlaps.

Actually Mer isn't based on the total trade route commerce. It's calculated individually for each trade route and also doesn't give partial points. So at 10% two trade routes making 15 each would still only give a total of 2 Food / Hammers (1 from each), instead of 3 from a total of 30 or 2.5 from partial points. (At least this is how the code seems to be written and how it is visually represented in game by the hammer and food icons next to the trade routes). However, I always relied on the visual and never actually did the actual math - which is irresponsible of me - so I'm going to check and get to the bottom of this.

Ideally, I would also like it balanced for all map types.

As for the BTS traits. Well, Exp in BTS only gives 25% to workers. In Thomas' War I actually changed it to not only 50% but 50% to worker units (i.e. workers and work boats and clonejacks) so it already sort of got buffed. Same thing Spi didn't give to monasteries in BTS and Fin to Banks.

I realized I had buffed some of the old traits and others left the same so I figured to revert them to their BTS values then buff if necessary (since I was already unsure about the balance of Sci and Agr - and now Nat - being too weak, worse to have them even weaker because other traits got even stronger). However, at the same time other buffs I left in - like Agr and Pro also helping Clone units now - so maybe my traits are actually all over the place now and I need to just re-examine everything (although the clone bonus was something specifically for a future era and the other removed bonuses lasted all game so you can't 100% compare).

 

[Falk]

Speaking of Dips double buildings... it actually (and always has in my mod) also gives double speed for the Apostolic Palace and the U.N.

What!? It does? Ok, I'm a Dipl fan now, double speed for AP is just fantastic. I'm currently playing as Alaric, I hope I can still get Theology in time, it's kinda late now.

First, Falk, what do you think of turingmachine's point about it stacking with Barter? I don't know, 10% no customs house, no barter.

With 10% and non-stacking with Barter, one could as well skip Merc and play Barter instead. I don't know, making it not stack seems desperate. If you can think of another bonus I'd prefer this over the nerfed version.

I actually didn't like that change and have thought about bringing it back to 3.13 levels.

This might be worth a try, I cant remember how it played back then.

 

[tsentom1]

What!? It does? Ok, I'm a Dipl fan now, double speed for AP is just fantastic. I'm currently playing as Alaric, I hope I can still get Theology in time, it's kinda late now.


With 10% and non-stacking with Barter, one could as well skip Merc and play Barter instead. I don't know, making it not stack seems desperate. If you can think of another bonus I'd prefer this over the nerfed version.


This might be worth a try, I cant remember how it played back then.

Well actually, not stacking with Barter I really meant I would give Barter a different bonus all together and the only way to get the trade route thing would be with Merc.

And as for the is it each individual trade route or total commerce, after some quick testing it actually seems to be a combination of both, which actually makes some confusing results. It takes priority with individual trade routes, it doesn't round up, and total commerce of whats left over with individual trade routes seems to count half as much (which actually ends up not making much of a negative difference with the percentages currently set, resulting in more than it should be). Crazy Firaxis coding. Anyway. I'll see what I can do.

 

[turingmachine]

Well actually, not stacking with Barter I really meant I would give Barter a different bonus all together and the only way to get the trade route thing would be with Merc.

And as for the is it each individual trade route or total commerce, after some quick testing it actually seems to be a combination of both, which actually makes some confusing results. It takes priority with individual trade routes, it doesn't round up, and total commerce of whats left over with individual trade routes seems to count half as much (which actually ends up not making much of a negative difference with the percentages currently set, resulting in more than it should be). Crazy Firaxis coding. Anyway. I'll see what I can do.

Hmm, well maybe I was misinformed about how the trait added up and gave out food and hammers. I still think 10% would be fine, no Barter. Or maybe have Barter only give commerce (right now it gives food, hammers, and commerce, while Mer only gives hammers and food). I don't know if the extra commerce stacks, with Mer but it does that'll be a why for them to still have synergy but still be unique.

 

[tsentom1]

Hmm, well maybe I was misinformed about how the trait added up and gave out food and hammers. I still think 10% would be fine, no Barter. Or maybe have Barter only give commerce (right now it gives food, hammers, and commerce, while Mer only gives hammers and food). I don't know if the extra commerce stacks, with Mer but it does that'll be a why for them to still have synergy but still be unique.

@Turingmachine: That's not a bad idea, but I don't know if the extra commerce counts towards the calculation or is just added at the end.

@Falk: I always had Dip do the two diplomatic wonders. Is the added espionage defense too much now considering this or is it okay?

@Everyone:

Speaking of Barter, besides trait feedback. Any thoughts on the civics would be helpful:

I think I've gotten them all to a point where none really feel useless and have their own situations. I am aware of a slight bug in the code for Milleranism and Serfdom which I've already corrected for the bug patch. Any other ideas? comments? bugs noticed?

 

[CHEESE!]

This is an AMAZING mod. Like a third exp pack. Keep it up!

(I had to go through three drafts do express that...)

 

[YuriPrime]

I have installed this mod but i am unable to load it.Does it need an .ini file?Detailed instructions would be most appreciated.

 

[tsentom1]

I have installed this mod but i am unable to load it.Does it need an .ini file?Detailed instructions would be most appreciated.

It doesn't need anything other than to unzip it and place it in the mods folder (usually something like: program files/firaxis games/sid civilization iv/beyond the sword/mods). It requires BTS patched to at least 3.13.

 

[tsentom1]

Here's another question, in terms of great people, which have you noticed seems to run out of names. I know the Great Generals tend to run out of names half way to 3/4 of the way into the game, so I'm adding a bunch more potential great general names to the bug patch. If you've noticed any of the other great people running out please let me know so I can add more names to their lists.

 

[Riftoff]

I am a noob to the mod, but it worked just fine earlier today, but now every time I try to start a new game it puts me on a duel-size map. No matter my settings before I started. I've tried it on several maps and civs.

 

[tsentom1]

I am a noob to the mod, but it worked just fine earlier today, but now every time I try to start a new game it puts me on a duel-size map. No matter my settings before I started. I've tried it on several maps and civs.

I've never heard of this happening before and since it was working yesterday it would seem weird that it would just switch like that.

Can you check if this is only happening for my mod or if it's also affecting other mods / the regular game.

 

[Dorrian]

Hi

Can someone please point out the obvious to me... how do you 'create' or 'build' the Faith tec?

Thanks

 

[Falk]

Can someone please point out the obvious to me... how do you 'create' or 'build' the Faith tec?

You don't. It is not really part of the game, it's simply there as a "container" for the new religions. Just ignore it.

 

[CHEESE!]

You don't. It is not really part of the game, it simply there as a "container" for the new religions. Just ignore it.

I got really at that till I realized to put on Choose Religions.

 

[Epicurist]

great mod...and your wonder releases have been outstanding.

Few things I would love to see in the next patch are:

1. Great Person Counter on the mainscreen.
2. One wonder I would love to see is a return to "darwin's voyage'" from civ 2.

 

[Riftoff]

I've never heard of this happening before and since it was working yesterday it would seem weird that it would just switch like that.

Can you check if this is only happening for my mod or if it's also affecting other mods / the regular game.

It was affecting my base game, and the Planetfall mod, but it went away after I restarted the game a couple of times. Still no idea what caused it.

 

[tsentom1]

Hi

Can someone please point out the obvious to me... how do you 'create' or 'build' the Faith tec?

Thanks

Falk and CHEESE! are right: Faith, Shamanism and Training can't be researched (basically if you can't see them in the tech tree you can't research them). The simple reason being that I felt having 16 possible religions in the game at once would seriously unbalance the game (though 1 more than standard BTS is possible). If I can figure out how to do it I would like to implement a semi-standard / choose religion solution where say you research Monotheism and then it lets you select from a list of monotheistic religions, but this is proving really difficult to code so I wouldn't expect it any time soon. In the meantime, the non-standard religions need the 'Choose Religion' option (there's an entry about this in the 'Thomas' War Concepts' of the Civlopedia).

Besides that as I said those three techs, as well as a few buildings and improvements, etc, are just dummy objects to store additional features in the game. It's a sloppy solution but it's the only way to do it without some extensive SDK modding. If you looks closely, actually, you can see those three techs in the tech tree. They're just hidden behind Masonry, Mathematics, and Military Tradition -- which is why their tech tiles are slightly darker -- as there's no real way to have a tech tile not show up.