Buce 02 - The Son's Of Ghengis Khan

Roads are important for many reasons: just make sure the roads are on tiles the cities will work. I think we are quite a bit away from war just now. Our distance from China will make war easier but going in too quickly will be a major setback.
 
Take your time. I don't think we need to rush this one. Once Slaves is at the cruise contro stage, we can all concentrate more on this one.
 
Ta-Tu is presenting a bit of a pickle. We have some options, but I'm not sure what the best choice is.
1. All citizens working, MMed for gold, 5-turn growth but only 4 spt (5-turn Archers).
2. One citizen becomes a specialist to prevent riots. We can get 10-turn growth and 5-turn Archers.
3. Up the lux slider to 30%. 5-turn growth, 4-turn Archers.

What does everyone think the best option is?

Edit: Also, we're 5 units over our support limit. I'm going to disband our three Scouts if no one has any objections.
 
I'd probably go for the slider, but that's just me.

As long as we've explored all our continent I can live without the scouts.
 
Slider sounds good to me, too, but we might want to bring a scout back home and use him for pillaging or something.
 
Goals:

Long - Crack open the world like a tasty peanut :)
Medium - Cow our neighbors and meet the rest of our victims.
Short - Build and sail our first curragh, prepare for war,

Cities:

Karakorum (3) grows in 1, Spear in 2.
Ta-tu (3) grows in 4, Spear in 4.
Kazan (2) grows in 5, Archer in 5.
Almarikh (1) grows in 9, Curragh in 7.

Military:

2 Workers
3 Scouts
8 Archers

Economy:

53 gold
+8 gpt
10% lux.

Diplomacy:

China (9 cities) - peace
Russia (9 cities) - peace
Both are up numerous techs (everything we can know about).

Discussion and questions:

Is everyone OK with a short 'research war' with China? We might be able to net a pair of slaves (if I declare as soon as the Archer is in position). There's some risk - declare ASAP and the Archer might lose; wait for a second Archer, and they might settle before we're in position.

How much military force do we need before we'll be ready to settle our fifth city? Ten non-MP archers? Twenty? Finally...if China settles on a hill before our archer is in position, how much force do we need before we're ready to kill the warrior defending it? Two archers? Three? Or do we have to back down?

Pre-turn:

Lux slider to 0% with no riots pending.

IT:

The Chinese settler pair heads N!

Turn 1 (1475 BC):

Move workers towards their road assignments.
Lux slider to 10% to prevent a riot in 'korum
Trading for Iron Working or Writing "can't be done."
The asking price for the Wheel is 8gpt+62 gold

(all we have).
MM Ta-Tu for growth in 2.
MM Kazan for one less red shield and one more uncorrupted gold coin.
MM Almarikh for one more gold coin.

IT:

China settles with the settler pair we were stalking.
Korum: Spear->Archer

Turn 2 (1450 BC):

Troops and workers move.

IT:

China demands 22 gold. After checking the rules of the variant, I cave.

Turn 3 (1425 BC):

MM cities (Ta-tu grew to size 4) and move troops.
Switch Ta-tu to Archer instead of Spear.

IT:

Ta-Tu: Archer->Archer

Turn 4 (1400 BC):

MM cities again, gaining an extra gold on the next IT. Writing is still too expensive.

IT:

Korum: Archer->Archer
Kazan: Archer->Worker

Turn 5 (1375 BC):

MM cities. Korum is now a 2-turn Archer factory!
I'm also moving our Archer forces towards China's closest city - we'll want a stack handy just outside their borders when we declare.

IT:

Zzz...

Turn 6 (1350 BC):

MM cities, move troops and workers.
Still no deals for Writing.

IT:

Almarikh: Curragh->Worker
GRR! The governor disappoints me. The new citizen in Korum was supposed to work a forest, completing the Archer. Instead, he worked an unmined BG, leaving us ONE SHORT of completion :mad: On the bright side, it still works as a 2-turn archer pump at size 5+.

Turn 7 (1325 BC):

Lux slider to 20% to prevent Korum from rioting.
MM cities.
Start sailing the Curragh west.

IT:

Korum: Archer->Archer
Ta-Tu: Archer->Archer
Kazan: Worker->Archer

Turn 8 (1300 BC):

MM cities, move troops a bit. China has a warrior exploring our core, so I'm covering our worker with an archer.Up the lux slider to 30% to keep Ta-tu working at peak efficiency.
Ta-Tu will grow in 5, Archer due in 4.

With some fiddling, I discover that Russia (or China) will sell us Writing for 10gpt+112 gold. That seems to expensive, so I don't take it.

IT:

We see two Chinese Warriors and a Chinese Archer on the move. We should watch them closely; I have a feeling they might declare war on us.

Turn 9 (1275 BC):

Disband two Scouts, bringing us back up to +5gpt.
MM Almarikh, losing a wasted shield and gaining two uncorrupted gold.
We could buy IW for 7gpt+120 gold. We can just barely afford that (we'll break even with our current citizen assignments). I don't take the trade.

IT:

More Chinese Warriors appear near Kazan.
Korum: Archer->Archer

Turn 10 (1250 BC):

Worker and military moves.


Handoff notes:

We can afford IW or Writing - barely. We should make a decision on whether to buy one of those before warring with China.

Speaking of which, China has several military units near Kazan: 4 Warriors (visible now) and one Archer (1S of the 2 Warriors on the hill).

In three turns, we can have seven Archers stacked outside Tatung - that would be a good time for us to declare on them, IMO.

Spoiler :
rageworld_endturn1250.JPG


The save
 
We see two Chinese Warriors and a Chinese Archer on the move. We should watch them closely; I have a feeling they might declare war on us.

Yep, I agree.

Every instinct tells me that China is looking for a fight. I suggest that we lower the slider temporarily and make a gpt deal for IW, then issue remove or declare to that tresspassing Warrior. And I'll bet my bottom dollar there is Iron in that mountain near Tatung.

Tusker, using the slider is the most effective strategy at the moment. An extra few gpt is not going to help us catch up in tech; tech prices will remain high until we meet some others. We must look to be militarily efficient and take techs for peace, and that is best served by working shields.
 
Tusker, using the slider is the most effective strategy at the moment. An extra few gpt is not going to help us catch up in tech; tech prices will remain high until we meet some others. We must look to be militarily efficient and take techs for peace, and that is best served by working shields.

Excellent points. It's going to be at least another turnset before we meet anyone else, possibly 2-3 turnsets. In the meantime, 7 Archers near Tatung *should* be enough to croak their defensive units and raze the city. Since we'll also have 2-3 Archers available for killing the Chinese units near Kazan and Ta-tu, we should be in pretty good shape for a short war.

Also, I've been admonished for deciding the wrong way on a demand in two out of my last three SGs. Team, how would you have decided on that Chinese demand for 22 gold early in my turnset? Also, at what point in the game would you start refusing demands?

I'm still trying to work out the proper balance between being humble and meek vs. spitting in the AI's face at the proper times in higher-level games.
 
Excellent points. It's going to be at least another turnset before we meet anyone else, possibly 2-3 turnsets. In the meantime, 7 Archers near Tatung *should* be enough to croak their defensive units and raze the city. Since we'll also have 2-3 Archers available for killing the Chinese units near Kazan and Ta-tu, we should be in pretty good shape for a short war.

A further reason for using the slider is that it allows our towns to grow; we will need to spawn more Settlers soon, and that can be done from a higher population without effecting shield output too dramatically.

Also, I've been admonished for deciding the wrong way on a demand in two out of my last three SGs. Team, how would you have decided on that Chinese demand for 22 gold early in my turnset? Also, at what point in the game would you start refusing demands?

I would have made the same decision, 22g is not worth fighting over.

I don't think this is one of those situations where one can apply a hard and fast rule. Instead there are a number of considerations to take in to account:

Do they owe you gpt? Do any of your trades pass through their territory? Do they have the means to dogpile you? Do they have the means to hurt you? Do you have anything to gain by going to war? What do you have to lose?

And it depends on how much the tribute that they are demanding is of use to them; 22g doesn't help China any, but demanding a resource or tech almost certainly will.

Most of the time the demand is for a nominal amount of gold; under most circumstances I would pay that. Anything else needs to be thought about.

It becomes instinctive with experience; until you have that instinct it might help to compile a list of pros and cons when faced with a demand.
 
Sorry, I've been away for the past few days. I'll see if I can take it tonight but I'm going away tomorrow for another couple of days to teach an English camp. If I can't get to it tonight, I won't be able to until the weekend. I'll try to get it done though.
 
Scratch that. I got it. I just checked my schedule and I'll be back Thursday night, so my set should be done before the weekend.
 
Here's the roster...

Roster

Buce - on deck
CivA
Norton II
Elephantium - just played
Phaedo - UP!
 
Okay, I just got back from my kids camp and am about to start. I'm going to re-read the logs and then check out the save before starting so if anyone want to give some input, I won't actually be starting the set for a couple of hours and probably won't finish before tomorrow.
 
It seems that a number of us are online so I thought I'd pose this questions before doing anything.

We make the 7gpt + 120 deal with China and then boot them. Are we doing that because we think they will declare and we'll get our cash back? If so, wouldn't it better to make the deal for more gpt and less hard cash?

Also, I can lower the slide to 20% by hiring a taxman in Ta-Tu. It still gets 2fpt and gives us 9gpt. I'm assuming that that is the best bet at the moment.
 
It seems that a number of us are online so I thought I'd pose this questions before doing anything.

We make the 7gpt + 120 deal with China and then boot them. Are we doing that because we think they will declare and we'll get our cash back? If so, wouldn't it better to make the deal for more gpt and less hard cash?

Also, I can lower the slide to 20% by hiring a taxman in Ta-Tu. It still gets 2fpt and gives us 9gpt. I'm assuming that that is the best bet at the moment.

Yep, IMO China is going to DOW, so drop the slider temporarily and make it for gpt. I suggest IW rather than Writing - we really need to know where the Iron is, and I don't think we have the wherewithall to ally Russia yet.

Use your best judgement regarding mm.
 
Gotcha. I'll wait for a bit to see if CivA has anything to add :)
 
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