Buce 02 - The Son's Of Ghengis Khan

[Phaedo]

Well, in general it seems that continuing the war with Russia seems obvious. I expect to follow Buce's suggestion of every 3rd sword sent towards China. The horse builds have been changed to swords. Continuing to populate wherever we can seems in order for upkeep if nothing else.

I haven't looked closely enough to check for MMing, but that will be my first step.

I guess the big questions that loom are:
1) When do we make peace with Cathy?
2) When do go back at China?

1) My feeling is that unless something serious changes (i.e. Cathy trades for iron and gets MIs), we should be able to wage effective war against her for a while. I'd like to see at least 2-3 towns razed before any kind of peace there. The problem with peace, is that we would have to declare on Mao and it would affect our rep.

2) We have 10 turns left of peace with Mao so unless he attacks us, so I probably won't see war in my set unless he demands something. I could possibly keep kicking him out in an effort to get him to declare, but until we have 6-9 swords in position to attack Mao's cities, I don't think that's a overly good idea.

Of course, if anything comes up I'll pause for consideration. If Cathy comes with some heavy firepower, I'd start baiting Mao so we would have the peace option.

My final concern is over cat builds. I'd like to start them in underproductive cities and hold off on rax builds (i.e. Darhan and Ore-yo). I know they are slow but so are our swords and they are rather nice for sieges (go figure). We'll be in the AA for a while yet so I think they'll have value for a bit.

I'm going to play at least 5 turns of my slave set first so there will be some time for input. All suggestions are welcome

 

[Bucephalus]

Well, in general it seems that continuing the war with Russia seems obvious. I expect to follow Buce's suggestion of every 3rd sword sent towards China. The horse builds have been changed to swords. Continuing to populate wherever we can seems in order for upkeep if nothing else.

Possibly 2 out of 3, even; depends what Cathy still has.

1) My feeling is that unless something serious changes (i.e. Cathy trades for iron and gets MIs), we should be able to wage effective war against her for a while. I'd like to see at least 2-3 towns razed before any kind of peace there. The problem with peace, is that we would have to declare on Mao and it would affect our rep.

Rep is paramount - always.

2) We have 10 turns left of peace with Mao so unless he attacks us, so I probably won't see war in my set unless he demands something. I could possibly keep kicking him out in an effort to get him to declare, but until we have 6-9 swords in position to attack Mao's cities, I don't think that's a overly good idea.

Of course, if anything comes up I'll pause for consideration. If Cathy comes with some heavy firepower, I'd start baiting Mao so we would have the peace option.

My final concern is over cat builds. I'd like to start them in underproductive cities and hold off on rax builds (i.e. Darhan and Ore-yo). I know they are slow but so are our swords and they are rather nice for sieges (go figure). We'll be in the AA for a while yet so I think they'll have value for a bit.

I'm going to play at least 5 turns of my slave set first so there will be some time for input. All suggestions are welcome

Don't be overly keen to push forward and raze cities; keep it methodical, and ensure we have counter offensive ability before committing units to offensive operations. I'm not convinced we've seen Cathy's 'rush' yet. That's not to say don't - as always, use your judgement - I just urge caution.

Fine with the Cats.

 

[Elephantium]

I'm not convinced we've seen Cathy's 'rush' yet. That's not to say don't - as always, use your judgement - I just urge caution.

I suspect you're right - during my set, we saw less than a dozen Russian troops on the offensive. That seems rather small for a DG AI with Russia's power.

Given the terrain, I'm expecting 3-5 additional surges of units if we stay at war indefinitely.

 

[Phaedo]

T0 150BC
Change all horse builds to swords. Also start a couple more settlers in low productivity towns. We need to expand our borders and claim some open land before we will be in a position to raze Russian towns.

T1 130BC
Cathy sends 2 rWarriors, 1 rArcher and an AC toward Darhan. Mao sends his settler pair deeper into our territory.
Attack Russian LB in the N (1-1). Horses just aren't effective.
Attack Russian forces S of Darhan (5-2). 2 horses promoted

T2 110BC
Cathy keeps sending up archers. She attacks one of the Northern horses with an LB but we retreat.
Mao sends his settler pair back.
Take out a Russian force (8-2), Kill the AC with the army (9-2)
Spear Army pillages NML roads.
So far, we can get Lit, 2gpt and 2g (all) for peace with Cathy.
Attack a Russian spear from a Mt with a horse (10-2)

T3 90BC
Cathy retreats her archers. Mao sends in his pair again.
We can also sell iron and horses to Mao. I have a feeling that we may be getting a demand from him soon.

T4 70BC
Mao shuffles a bunch of troops and the settler pair heads North.
Shuffle some horses towards the Eastern border.
Take out a roaming LB in the North (11-3)

T5 50BC
It looks like Mao is heading to claim that Northern Iron. With a harbour, that would give him access. It will take him 5 turns to reach a spot that can claim it and still have seas access so we can wait on that decision.
See another LB coming from Cathy's city in the North. That needs to be dealt with. I have 2 swords and a horse on the way and another horse could be sent relatively easily.
Cathy is nowhere to be seen. Perhaps she is upgrading her archers (that would be a bit of a problem if they arrive in the next 3 turns).

T6 30BC
LB attacks one of our swords (11-4)
Kill 2 LBs (13-4)
Start pushing South. Cathy doesn't have anything waiting for us. I think she must be fighting on another front as well.

T7 10BC
meet Japan, who are now in a Republic.
Found Sugar Shack

T8 10AD
Found Choybalsan.
Kill a Russian spear (from the Mt S of Ta-Tu)
The peace deal with Russia has gone up a bit but we still can't get Poly. Hopefully I'll be able to raze her northern camp by the end of the turn.
Nothing to take advantage of with the new contact.

T9 30AD
It seems China and Russia are at war!
We are almost prepared for a poke at China and allying with Cathy might sweeten the deal for the techs we need.
Oh, our people think we need the Forbidden Palace. I agree.
Our deals with Persia and China will end next turn. That will give us a number of options to be discussed.
China also connected their iron through the ivory in no-man's-land. Hopefully that will be destroyed next run but it'll set them up for a number of possible MIs.
A settler was built in Ulaan but I'm going to leave it there. I think we have the option of chasing the Northern iron and spice (after the Chinese future city is destroyed) of going SE to the grab the two BGs. Further discussion needed.

T10 50AD
Finally raze that Northern Russian City. (15-4)
We can get Poly and Lit for 51g from Cathy.

End Notes:
Not on overly ambitions set. It seems to me that Cathy is the straw man of the continent and Mao is the biggest threat. We can use more swords but now that the Northern Russian city is gone we can consolodate better.
We still suffer from a lack of workers, but that is expected.
A Chinese settler pair disappeared into the fog up north toward the iron. That needs to be taken care of. There are enough swords and horses that could be sent to raze the city in about 5 turns.
Finally, there is a settler in Ulaan that needs to be sent to a spot. I think we should gear up for war with China and send it up to claim both the iron and spice but it needs to be discussed.
We also need to keep an eye on the no-man's-land to keep Mao's iron unattached.

 

[Phaedo]

Pics later

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice.

I think we have a number of potential options here; I'll d/l the save and take a look later.

 

[Othniel]

Good stuff.

I think Phaedo might have been saying this, but just to make it plain: It might be a really nice idea to ally Russia against China as part of the peace deal. That way they're forced to attack us and give us war happiness when the deal ends. Without looking at the save, it sounds like we're strong enough to fight on two fronts since Russia is just dribbling in units.

 

[Bucephalus]

Good stuff.

I think Phaedo might have been saying this, but just to make it plain: It might be a really nice idea to ally Russia against China as part of the peace deal. That way they're forced to attack us and give us war happiness when the deal ends. Without looking at the save, it sounds like we're strong enough to fight on two fronts since Russia is just dribbling in units.

Yes, I think that Phaedo was alluding to that; unfortunately it is not possible unless you have diplomatic relations, and we have no embassy in Moscow.

Nonetheless, I agree that it's time to turn our attention to Mao again. I'm not sure how he got to hook up the Iron again, since the road from Nanking to Tientsin passes through no man's land , but it means we will see a few Maces and Pikes. I'm thinking that we can push forward to the choke point with the Sword Army and a few Cats/Swords, and hold it indefinitely while we clean up the cities on our side of the choke.

I think we can continue the war with Cathy; she will give 2 lesser techs now - we will lose nothing by razing a few more Russian towns, and we could use the slaves.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm not sure how he got to hook up the Iron again, since the road from Nanking to Tientsin passes through no man's land , but it means we will see a few Maces and Pikes.

An army can only take up one square at a time and I couldn't attack the worker once it moved onto the ivory. Notice that if a worker moves to the square to the E of the army now, they could hook it up again and we couldn't stop them without declaring war.

 

[Phaedo]

I agree about continuing with Cathy. I was musing in the log when I wrote about allying Cathy. We could make peace, establish the embassy and then ally with her, but I think it might be better to spend the cash and establish one with Mao before we go to war with him. I think that if we try to boot Mao, he will declare on us and we'll get our war happiness anyway. We souldn7t have to wait too long before he enters our territory again.

Also, I forgot to mention it, but Mao gave our curraghs the boot order. We may just want to send them over to Japan as I doubt that they will be able to make it through Mao's waters. They still have their movement in the save.

 

[Bucephalus]

An army can only take up one square at a time and I couldn't attack the worker once it moved onto the ivory. Notice that if a worker moves to the square to the E of the army now, they could hook it up again and we couldn't stop them without declaring war.

No worries, mate.

 

[Phaedo]

It was actually awfully tempting to declare and grab two more slaves but I held off . It was only connected for one IBT so hopefully the AI doesn't respond as quickly as we might. It is true that you only need the resource to start the build right? After that the build will finish even without the resource? Would the AI have immediately switched his archer builds to maces do you think, or is that too creative for it?

 

[Bucephalus]

It was actually awfully tempting to declare and grab two more slaves but I held off . It was only connected for one IBT so hopefully the AI doesn't respond as quickly as we might. It is true that you only need the resource to start the build right? After that the build will finish even without the resource? Would the AI have immediately switched his archer builds to maces do you think, or is that too creative for it?

As far as I can make out, it's still connected by the road from Nanking to Tientsin, but you are right - once a build is begun, it no longer requires the resource to finish.

You called it right by not taking the Slaves - our Rep is going to be important in a zero science game.

 

[Phaedo]

As far as I can make out, it's still connected by the road from Nanking to Tientsin,

Not yet . Hangchow isn't connected to Tientsin yet and the Nanking-Tientsin road can be pillaged to prevent the hook up. The army still has one square of movement left by the way, so that can be done next turn. I can't see any way to prevent Hangchow and Tientsin from getting iron though without war.

 

[Bucephalus]

Not yet . Hangchow isn't connected to Tientsin yet and the Nanking-Tientsin road can be pillaged to prevent the hook up. The army still has one square of movement left by the way, so that can be done next turn. I can't see any way to prevent Hangchow and Tientsin from getting iron though without war.

In the diplo screen, they appear to have Iron; unless they are importing it, it must be hooked up on that road, surely?

 

[Phaedo]

The road on the ivory completed on the IBT and was pillaged the same turn of the save so they have it for this turn only (unless they are importing it). I did see a Japanese boat so they have a viable route there. They could be importing it. They also have a worker working to connect Hang and Tien so if that finishes on the IBT they will have it next turn too. With the no-man's-land only one square wide, it's going to be tough to keep them denied of it although we can limit their access before war. I checked with the 10AD autosave in CAII and selling iron to China wasn't an option so I think that they must have a deal with Japan.

 

[Bucephalus]

The road on the ivory completed on the IBT and was pillaged the same turn of the save so they have it for this turn only (unless they are importing it). I did see a Japanese boat so they have a viable route there. They could be importing it. They also have a worker working to connect Hang and Tien so if that finishes on the IBT they will have it next turn too. With the no-man's-land only one square wide, it's going to be tough to keep them denied of it although we can limit their access before war. I checked with the 10AD autosave in CAII and selling iron to China wasn't an option so I think that they must have a deal with Japan.

First order of business, then - pillage around..........oh, the capital, whatever it's called.

 

[Elephantium]

Beijing? (curse the 10-character limit!)

 

[Phaedo]

These are just some thoughts for discussion. I'm still not convinced that this is the way to look at the situation but,

This has been a good lesson for me about keeping abreast of the foreign situation. I didn't see any trading possibilities so I didn't check the diplo screen. Had I been more conscientious, we would have known if China is trading for iron or not (rather than making an educated guess). I realize that this is the kind of oversight that makes a Sid win impossible. Sorry about that.

So where we stand now is that China has iron (probably through trade). If they didn't, I would have thought that a war sooner than later with them would be good because of the possibility of their unit superiority and their infringement upon our territory. Knowing that they have iron makes an immediate war with Mao a necessity.

Knowing that Mao has iron and knowing that Cathy doesn't seems significant to me. I like Othaniel's consideration about war happiness. There is a question of timing. If Mao connects iron, he can trade it with Cathy. So denying Mao of a domestic iron source is still a primary concern. I think that if Mao infringes in any way we should boot him but what if he doesn't? What are our conditions for war with Mao?

Might it not be a consideration to make peace with Cathy, establish the embassy and ally her against Mao? I agree that under the current situation we can keep Cathy at war for a long time but if she got iron, that would change. Messing with Mao's domestic iron source would make that deal impossible. If we allied Cathy against Mao (in the three step process, assuming we could afford it) would ensure that she didn't get iron for a while. What do we do?

My feeling is that we take any chance we get to provoke a war with China and continue to keep the iron disconnected from the capital. But Mao has a settler heading to that northern iron, which would give him access and trading possibilities once he gets a harbour. I think we should wait on war with Mao until it is convenient but if the situation develops without giving us the is, we make peace with Cathy and then buy her in.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'll post a pre turn analysis tomorrow, but I'm inclined to believe it's time to go at Mao just as soon as the peace deal is over, with or without War Happiness. He's capable of becoming a nuicance if we allow him to keep Iron for long, but right now we have the upper hand.

Any thoughts from the rest of the team?