Buce01: The Slavemaster

[CivActuary]

Sparta is once again out of sync; to put it right, remove a citizen from an improved BG, and place it on an unimproved grassland tile.
It will then grow in 2, and give a Settler in 2, and should be back at size 5; it will require a temporary adjustment of the slider to prevent a riot.

OK, this is what I do not understand with the factory, and I alluded to as much in my turnlog - Sparta is currently running fine as a 4 turn factory (I produced 2 settlers in the 8 turns I played) from size 4 to 6 (actually 4.5 to 6.5, as the box runs half full at 4 to half full at 6, accumulating 30 shields in those 4 turns), so I did not think it needed any adjustment. At the beginning of my turnset, Sparta was size 6, scheduled to grow in 1 and produce a Settler in 1. It produced a Settler but shrunk to size 4 with a full food box and did not grow to size 5. If Miles Teg follows your instructions, won't this happen again? I just now went back and played through that inherited turn again, and no matter what I did, I could not get Sparta to produce a Settler and go from size 6 with 1 turn to grow, produce a settler, and then shrink to size 5 with an empty food box (save for the granery) from turn 0 to 1 of my set.

CivA: Please don't take these comments as criticism, that is not my intent; however it is important that the issues are addressed, and that we all learn from them.

No offense taken at all, that's one of the main reasons I play these SGs, MM is admittedly the worst part of my game and I sometimes miss small items such as you mention with Athens and Thermo. I am trying to understand some of the finer points like the settler factory above, so I am going to be asking more than my share of questions about it. You are one of the reasons I signed up for this one, Buce, I have a great deal of respect for your game and wanted the experience of a DG game with some pointers as to what I do wrong. Feel free to keep pointing these out.

Short term strategy:

Before Miles Teg plays his turns I'd like to hear from you all regarding the opportunity that we now have with these Bab Settlers.

My own thoughts are that it is an opportunity far too good to resist; if we have a consensus on that, we can discuss strategy.

Edit:

One immediate thought is that we will need to tie Hittites down with a gpt deal, I think; they have Swords, AC's, and are near enough to hurt us, so we must avoid Babs allying them.

They will sell HBR for 13gpt, and although we haven't yet hooked up our Horses, doing so will be a top priority once we have those extra Slaves, so it's probably our priority tech too.

I'm all for war with the Babs, we need the slaves. No deals for slaves appeared during my turnset, so we need to take them by force. I think we need a hoplite in Pharsalos to deflect any attacks there before we declare.

Would it be worth it to have an archer task force to appropriate those 2 Bab cities to the South? With this war we could grab some slaves and maybe one or both of those cities, and then make peace for some techs?

 

[Elephantium]

I did some testing of the settler factory on my save, and I found some interesting results:

First, when the city is size 6, due to grow in 1, settler due in 1, the next turn will give
* size 4, due to grow in 1 (full foodbox), settler due in 5.

The progression we want is
Turn 0 - size 4, 5 food, no shields (+6*), settler produced.
Turn 1 - size 5, 0 food, 7 shields (+7)
Turn 2 - size 5, 5 food, 14 shields (+7*)
Turn 3 - size 6, 0 food, 23 shields (+7)
Turn 4(0) - size 4, 5 food, 30(0) shields (+6), settler produced.

* = The governor will automatically assign the new citizen to a forest or mined BG on these turns, giving us just the number of shields we need.

Edit: I'm also in favor of war with the Babs; we can enslave 2-3 of their settlers and take one or both of their cities to our south.

It also looks like those two settler pairs near Sparta are going to try to settle past Argos. Keep them off the peninsula until we're ready to declare!

 

[Bucephalus]

There is clearly something odd about Sparta; I shall take another look at Elephantium's save, and see what I can make of it.

 

[Bucephalus]

Well, I've solved the mystery; Sparta is not adjacent to fresh water, so therefore cannot grow to size 7.

Quite what to do about it, I'm not yet sure.

I'm responsible for this, I should have noticed before, so apologies to Tusker and CivA.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK. The only answer is to make Sparta operate as a five turner.

This could probably be done by mining the Beef, but we can't afford to waste the Worker turns.

The simplest way is to alternate the Settler production with one turn of Wealth production.

I have taken screenshots to make life easy for everyone.

First though, Miles Teg will need to follow my previous instructions to get it back in to sync, with the Settler and growth both due in 2.

Once that is done, the following should be done:

When Sparta drops to size 4, mm like this:

Spoiler :

After 1 turn it will grow to size 5; mm like this:

Spoiler :

After 2 turns it will grow to size 6; mm like this:

Spoiler :

It will be necessary to mm manually after each turn of growth, because the new citizen is automatically placed on the forest tile; also adjust the slider at size 6, to avoid riots.

If anyone is not clear on this, please speak up before your turnset is played.

 

[Phaedo]

Nice explanation. I was out all day yesterday and was doing the Bede challenge so I haven't go to my other games in a bit. I'm all for stealing some slaves and the ACs worry me so an alliance would be ideal. I'll look at the save and see if I have any more thoughts.

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice explanation. I was out all day yesterday and was doing the Bede challenge so I haven't go to my other games in a bit. I'm all for stealing some slaves and the ACs worry me so an alliance would be ideal. I'll look at the save and see if I have any more thoughts.

I think you mis-read my post; I wasn't proposing an alliance, merely tying them in to a gpt deal so they won't ally with the Babs.

We don't yet have Writing, and it would break the bank to get it, leaving no gold for Embassies or alliances.

The AC's are not an immediate threat, as they've only just got SoZ.

 

[Bucephalus]

"Cry, 'Havoc', and let slip the dogs of war!"

War it is then, unless MT has any compelling arguments against it.

We now need to discuss how to proceed.

I have some proposals to make, but - as always - it is not a fait accompli. I encourage discussion, questions, and alternative viewpoints; the only proviso is that if you disagree you should provide, a) a reasoned argument, and b) an alternative proposal.

Duration of the war:

Since we will (hopefully) achieve our aims in the first turn of this war, I suggest that we keep it as short as possible; IMO, we should get peace as soon as Babylon will talk - usually 5-6 turns - even if we have to pay a little.

We don't really have the capability to go on the offensive yet, and the Bab cities around us would just auto raze if we did.

What I suggest is that once we have snatched our Slaves we should just sit tight; at worst, I think we'll just get the odd Warrior approach our territory.

Any fighting that does occur should do so outside our borders; we can pick off stray units without getting Hoplites involved - the longer we delay our GA, the better IMO.

Timing:

As soon as our per turn deal expires; this will be after all moves on MT's second turn, before the IBT.

Prior to this, I strongly suggest that we buy HBR from the Hittites for gpt - the price is currently 13gpt - for the reasons stated in my previous posts.

The Spear/ Settler combo has the greatest potential for a RNG upset, so I suggest that the two Archers currently garrisoned in Pharsolos and Corinth are mobilized on the pre-turn to support the Archer currently tracking the pair; it seems unlikely that they will settle inside two turns.

The Warriors near Sparta shouldn't provide too much of a problem, but again we should take no chances - mobilize all available Archers, even if we have to temporarily up the slider.

Settlers:

Now that Hiawatha is settling from Galley's, I think it a priority to settle the Iron next; I'll look at providing an updated dotmap after I've posted this.

Slaves:

Assuming that we become the proud owners of 6 new Slaves, we need to decide priority Worker tasks.

I suggest that the four which will be in the core are divided in to pairs, one pair roading to the Iron, the other mining and roading the undeveloped tiles in our core - there are still BG's undeveloped.

The third pair would be most efficiently used to connect our Horses, I think.

Post war:

Once this war is over, we will start to be in a much stronger position, with both Horses and Iron, and enough Workers to reasonably develop what we have.

Once we have a few Swords and Horses, I think it will be time for some aggressive expansion and pointy stick research, again at Babylon's expense.

MT, can you give us some indication that you are still with us?

 

[Elephantium]

OK. The only answer is to make Sparta operate as a five turner.
<snip>
If anyone is not clear on this, please speak up before your turnset is played.

I'm unclear about this. Why can't we operate it as a four-turner, as explained in my previous post?

With respect to the war, I suggest we mobilize one or both of the Archers in Athens to provide a stronger presence near Corinth and Pharsalos. We can't afford to lose any cities!

Also, are we still planning on settling north of Sparta? If so, do we have forces available to defend that city if we found it while we're at war? Or will we settle the Iron first?

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm unclear about this. Why can't we operate it as a four-turner, as explained in my previous post?

I've been unable to make it work as one; each time, it slips further back, from one turn to growth, then two, and so on.

By all means explain to me again if I'm missing something; open up the save, and take screenies as you go, so we can see what you mean.

With respect to the war, I suggest we mobilize one or both of the Archers in Athens to provide a stronger presence near Corinth and Pharsalos. We can't afford to lose any cities!

I've just opened the save, and taken a closer look (I was working from memory), and I 100&#37; agree with you; in fact, I'd go further than that, given that there are no roads in place, and the fact that Babs have Bowmen (higher defence stats - something else I overlooked ) I think we should move Archers and Hoplites to those cities, even if it means delaying the war by a couple of turns - it wouldn't be difficult to keep those Settlers near Sparta shuffling back and forth.

Also, are we still planning on settling north of Sparta? If so, do we have forces available to defend that city if we found it while we're at war? Or will we settle the Iron first?

Are you talking about the peninsular? I would say so (see dotmap soon), but the Iron is a must now Hiawatha is settling from boats. I don't see defending them as much of an issue, but Thermopylae is producing Hoplites every three turns anyway.

Dotmap:

Spoiler :

 

[Miles Teg]

Ok got the save, will play today.

 

[Elephantium]

I've been unable to make it work as one; each time, it slips further back, from one turn to growth, then two, and so on.

By all means explain to me again if I'm missing something; open up the save, and take screenies as you go, so we can see what you mean.

I'll post details later tonight, once I've had time to log the turnset thoroughly.

Are you talking about the peninsular? I would say so (see dotmap soon), but the Iron is a must now Hiawatha is settling from boats. I don't see defending them as much of an issue, but Thermopylae is producing Hoplites every three turns anyway.

No, I'm talking about dot #5 from your previous dotmap - the square between the wheat and Uruk.

As for the peninsula, I'll post a dotmap of my own tonight.

 

[Elephantium]

1200 BC:

Growth and Settler due in 1, but the city is maxed out at size 6, so it will drop to size 4 when the settler builds:

Spoiler :

1175 BC:

Size 4, full food box, fresh start. I MMed to only get 1 food; Thermo could use the growth boost.

Spoiler :

1150 BC:

Size 5, empty food box, 8 shields towards the settler, with another 7 coming in next turn:

Spoiler :

1125 BC:

Size 5, about to grow, 15 shields in the box, another 7 due (but it will really be 9 because the governor will assign the new citizen to the forest):

Spoiler :

1100 BC:

Size 6, growth in 2, settler builds in 1, even with one citizen bringing in no shields:

Spoiler :

And now the settler factory is set to operate smoothly.

 

[Elephantium]

Factory turn 1:

Size 4, growth in 1, Settler in 4 (even though it says 5):

Spoiler :

Factory turn 2:

Size 5, growth in 2, Settler in 3 (even though the advisor estimates 4). If the governor assigned the new citizen to the forest, move him to a mined BG (Delphi, Athens, and Thermo can all benefit from mined BGs that Sparta isn't using on Factory Turn 1).

Spoiler :

Factory turn 3:

Size 5, growth in 1, Settler in 2 (despite the advisor)

Spoiler :

Factory turn 4:

Size 6, growth in 2, Settler in 1. Move the citizen from the forest to a grassland (we don't even need a mined BG for this step!)

Spoiler :

Factory turn 5/1:

We're back where we started!
Size 4, growth in 1, Settler in 4 (even though it says 5):

Spoiler :

 

[Miles Teg]

Pre-turn: Adjust slider, micro-manage Athens, Corinth and Sparta With respect to Bucephalus, I decided to shift Sparta's and Athens's tiles in such a way that Athens got an improved bonus grassland, It didn't matter for Sparta, and it gives us an extra commerce above Bucephalus' sugestion, it also give two extra shields, not sure how that will affect things. Move an Athenian archer and Delphian hoplite to Pharsalos.

Turn1. Dutch complete the Great Wall, The Spearman/Settler pair is moving southwest, I decide to give chase for this turn, but if they keep this up I'll turn around

Turn2. Settler complete, Sent off to Iron. The Spear/Settler heads east, In other words he's coming home! Up the luxslider to prevent riots in Corinth

Turn3. Continued Game of cat and mouse with the Spear/Settler.

Turn4. Micromanage Sparta

Turn5. Mwhahaha! Everything is in a steel trap to be sprung

Turn6. WAR! I purchase horseback riding from the Hittites, then I attack. Spear defeats our first archer, but the second kills it with 1 hp to spare, another archer kill a warrior
with no damage, We loose one archer to a warrior on a hill

Turn7. Kill the last warrior, I take a gamble and use an archer pair to attack the Spice town. First archer killed, second victorious, auto-razes city. Found Mycenae on dot 1 of the new map, Settler from Sparta moved to dot 2.

Turn8. Victorious archer killed by a warrior

Turn9. A swarm of Bab units appear, Hammurabi's not interested in talk, We can probably hold our cities but we will get the early golden age. Defeat one bowmen with archer.

Turn10. Loose two archers to a bowmen, Hammurabi wont talk

I'll post a better turnlog and a screenie tomorrow, It's late

 

[Bucephalus]

We're back where we started!
Size 4, growth in 1, Settler in 4 (even though it says 5):

Excellent, Elephantium; that kind of participation and original thought is exactly what I look for in an SG - thank you.

Team, it goes without saying that these instructions override my previous ones.

 

[Bucephalus]

With respect to Bucephalus, I decided to shift Sparta's and Athens's tiles

No problem at all; everything that I say and do is open to question.

My position as administrator is to provide a lead, and pull together the threads of the team's thoughts.

Miles, you are clearly a capable player; I think the team would benefit greatly if you were a little more forthcoming in team discussions.

Now, the Set:

It was mostly well handled; the one exception IMO, was to raze the Spice town. All it achieved was to give the space to Iroquois to expand in to - if it had been left to Babylon, we could have taken it at a later stage, without making a second enemy.

Looking at the save, I'm sure we can avoid losses, and probably even our GA in the time it will take Hammurabi to talk.

Phaedo, you are up.

 

[Bucephalus]

Phaedo:

If you leave Athens empty, it will almost certainly draw them in without them attacking our out-lying cities, thus preventing an unwanted GA.

Hammurabi will talk in 3 turns; the one advantage to be gained from razing the Spice town, is that he will pay for peace.
I think that if you add lump sum gold to our side of the deal, we will get Writing at a discount - check it by seeing what the others want for it.

Delphi can be mm for 4 turn Archers/ Hoplites, if you need to, by working the two forest tiles instead of the grasslands.

I would suggest that it's best not to attack Bowmen with Archers, but it's your call.

 

[Bucephalus]

WAR! I purchase horseback riding from the Hittites, then I attack.

I trust that you DOW'd first, yes?

 

[Phaedo]

I'll have a look in a bit and post some thoughts. This one may take a few days to play if that's ok