Buce01: The Slavemaster

Arg!!!! I just wrote a post and my firefox crashed.

Turn 3, pausing for the night. 3 Babs killed (2 spears and a bow), no losses

We have 314g and 8gpt
We can get Masonry for 4gpt +6 g
or Writing for:
8gpt + 55
7gpt + 73
6gpt + 91

Despite my love of cats, I think writing is the way to go and I'd be more comfortable with the lower gpt. I wasn't sure what we had decided (if we did) about what we want tech-wise.

It's bed time but I'll finish the rest tomorrow.
 
Arg!!!! I just wrote a post and my firefox crashed.

Turn 3, pausing for the night. 3 Babs killed (2 spears and a bow), no losses

We have 314g and 8gpt
We can get Masonry for 4gpt +6 g
or Writing for:
8gpt + 55
7gpt + 73
6gpt + 91

Despite my love of cats, I think writing is the way to go and I'd be more comfortable with the lower gpt. I wasn't sure what we had decided (if we did) about what we want tech-wise.

It's bed time but I'll finish the rest tomorrow.

I'd suggest waiting a turn; I'm confident that Hammurabi will give a better deal for peace. Use lump-sum gold, to avoid too many AI demands.

And Writing is definitely the one to take - it's the gateway to Maths and, ultimately, The Republic.

And keep on looking for workers to buy.
 
T0 750BC
Check out Sparta. It's on a settler in 3 equal to growth. Once we get the settler, I'll hire a taxman and start Tusker's model to get it.

Definately an interesting setup. I wonder if Punk boy is going to got for the horses to get his UU first of for the iron.

Changed Hopilite builds to archers. We have a number of hopilites and if we had more offensive units, it would give some more options.

Move the archer out of Athens for bait

IBT Lots of interesting movement. Babs effectively move out.

T1 730
Re-think Sparta and hire a taxman.
Found Ithaca (just finished re-reading the Odyssey). Not quite sure what to build. It won't be too corrupt yet units built will take forever to get anywhere and it is shield poor. Start a dinghy for the moment.
The exploring warriors are now obsolete but don't hurt us so start to move them back home. Maybe they can delay Punk boy's settling the horses or eventually get back to help a build.
Attack a Bab spear and win with no loss (Vet vs reg).
Move some troops to make the outpost towns strong while preparing for peace and dropping the lux slider with MPs when the time comes.

IBT Iros are building the MoM. The Babs advance pellmell. Bab bow attacks 2 archers on a hill near Sparta and dies. Love the defensive bonus.

T2 710BC
Take a Bab bow from a hill and move 2 other archers and a hopilite to defend. Pull all units out of Delphi (we have to get a temple there for style points) to draw attackers away from the hopilite and hire a clown to prevent a riot.
Kill a Bab warrior without loss

IBT ruse worked. 4 bows moved towards Delphi.

Open the save and have a look again
T3 690BC
We're waiting for a turn so keep Delphi open (a shame we can't get the Oracle there). Move units to the hill.
Settler moves to Thermo on his way to the spices.
Send an archer towards the spices to slow down the Hitties settler pair.
Check the thread for settler pump allocations. Nice work Tusker!

IBT Zulu finishes MoM

T4 670BC
Iros seem to have claimed the SE spices but there is still room for our city.
Babs will give peace and Writing for 6gpt and 71g. That's down 10g from last turn. We have the high ground so decide to attack and see if I can get the price down.
vArcher attacks a rSpear but dies (fair enough after no losses last turn)
Kill the spear (1-1)
Attack a vBow from the Mt, die (1-2)
kill it from the hill (2-2)
Kill one of the 2 warriors that cam e up near Corinth (3-2)
Kill a rBow next to Phar (becomes elite)
Settler will be in place in 3 turns
Make sure Sparta is on track
Sue for peace
I can get Writing and Masonry for 279 + 1gpt. That still gives us a bit more than 50g next turn to buy a slave if it available at 9gpt so I decide to take it.
Drop the lux 10% and only Corinth will riot. Hire a takman and we are making 16gpt (Corinth still has the same shields and gold, it just isn't growing. Currently at pop 4, but we can't inprove any tiles to get more anyway)

IBT Babs run away, Hittite settler pair continues to move away

T5 650BC
Corinth gets it's food back as the archer can return.
Move archers back to heal
Finish roading the iron and send the slaves back towards more productive towns (still 1 tile away from connection to our fledgling empire)
Zulu and Hittite warriors are milling about our new city location but hopefully it won't be a problem.

IBT Zzzz

T6 630BC
archer moves to future city location, settler moves onto the Mt. Iron is now connected and all builds change to swords and horses
Slow Thermo's growth but get 3-turn swords or horses
Sparta's about to riot. I'm pretty sure a riot happens before a build so I hire a taxman. Still get a settler next turn. Tusker's plan is good, it just requires 40% lux OR the specialist switch on the last tunr (the far better option ans it builds our bank nicely)
On that note, 74g in the bank and 15gpt with the taxman. Not bad after giving all out gold away for the techs. All civs are up Phil, Code, maps, math and myst.

IBT Zzzz

T7 610BC
Worker turns.
Settler built, send him along the roads towarsd the south.
I'm sending archers to Corinth and Knossis in anticipation of taking Shuruppak with them. Th enew swords and horses should head West for a short war with the Babs to grab some land and catch up on techs. The Iros look like a possible target as well suprisingly. They are agri so we should think about them as a slave farm. They will produce them quicker and are equally deprived of resources. The main differences is their access to other Civs.

IBT Zzzz

T8 590BC
Not much other than som eworker turns.
Hittites culture expanded their borders. It will affect the next city decision.

IBT Hittite settler pair appraes with an AC escort (first time I've seen that).
Bab settler enters out territory heading for the open area N of Delphi. 15 turns left of peace so no option.

T9 570BC
1st sword built and heads West.
Worker moves

IBT Interesting movement. The Babs decided to continue to move East rather than North and the Hittites entered on a line to our Northern Peninsula. Another Bab spear followed the settler in as well. They seem to be ignoring the wheat. Perhaps the next settler ought to go North. With our roads it will be well ahead of the invaders but should still be walking by the time we have another one to settle NW of the Wheat.

T10 550BC
Some unit movement West.

We have some decisions to make about our next city. I have sacrificed some improvements in favour of roads (we will be going to war shortly and we have 3 nicely productive cities; it would be nice for their units to get to effective positions).

We drew good opponents for this variant. We have 3 agri Civs on our continent (Hittites, Iros and Zulus). If we could become militarily strong enough to do the all war thing for a few turns and raze cities, we might be able to alternate war after that according to which civ sent settlers our way and just collect slaves. It probably wouldn't work on DG, however I think we can improve on the original harvest plan. We can alternate war between the Iros and Babs and develop 2 civs to harvest. The only thing we would have to do to make it happen would be to get control of those horses, not yet in Iro hands. Perhaps Murry could help us with that and spend a couple of his ACs.

These are thoughts that came up during the set. They aren't well thought out but bear some consideration.

Spoiler :

550BCslaveempire.jpg

 

Attachments

OK, I've had a quick look at the save.

Again, a well handled set, in the main.

There are a couple of issues that I'd like to address, one minor.

Firstly, I'm not sure that roading the hill to Ithica is an effective use of Worker turns, when there are three unimproved BG's in the same area.

But the bigger issue - once again - is regarding city micromanagement:

Athens is currently one shield short of producing 3 turn Swords, while Thermopylae is wasting a shield doing so; a simple exchange of tiles will see them both making 10 shields per turn.

This is something that we need to keep a closer eye on.

Team, we have a Settler waiting to claim the Ivory to our South; Phaedo and I have not been able to reach agreement on where it should go, so I'd really like some input on the matter.

I'm up, but I won't get to play until tomorrow, so speak up.
 
- Ivory. The issue as I see it between Buce's and Phaedo's placements is when we want to go to war with the Hittites. In Phaedo's plan, the first city would not get us any Ivory, it is only when we aggressively settle next to Aleppo do we get the lux, but that provokes the Hittites. I don't think we are ready for war with them, so I would favor settling on the hill 1N of the uppermost tusk, so we can get the benefit of one of those luxes.

- Settling to the N. On our Northen peninsula, do we know if there is a further square in the fog or is that land's end?

- Settlign toward the babs - I still like the spot NW of Sparta and Delphi, but that will be first attacked in the next war, so we need to make sure defences are there.

If I get off work at a decent hour tonight I'l grab the save and see what else I can see.
 
- Ivory. The issue as I see it between Buce's and Phaedo's placements is when we want to go to war with the Hittites. In Phaedo's plan, the first city would not get us any Ivory,

Why wouldn't it get the ivory? The initial 9 should override Murry's recent culture expansion.
 
Ah. Sorry. I thought the first spot you were talking about was one of the yellows. The green one would, you are correct, but that one just seems a bit out on a limb without the first yellow to support it.

It's a bit of a gut call, to me anyway, they both have fresh water, the ivory, but one is on a hill, so I suppose if I was making the gut call I'd go for the hill.
 
re: the dotmaps near the ivory, I'm in favor of Phaedo's dotmap. The first yellow dot still provides a kill zone vs. Hittite aggression, and while the second yellow dot requires war, the green dot - or Buce's dot - is likely to precipitate war anyway. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a city 1S of Phaedo's green dot - it gets 2 ivory, game, 2 fish, and 2 Wheat within its BFC.

re: build orders, I think Athens should build swords and Thermo should build horses. Athens is closer to our borders, so swords built there can be in position faster than swords built in Thermo.

Also, we can issue a "Remove or declare!" to Hammurabi. If he declares, we gain 14 gold, plus another pair of slaves from his settler pair next to Delphi. OTOH, that's likely to kick off our GA. Is it something we're willing to go for?

Phaedo, could you explain what you mean about including a specialist in the operation of the settler factory? I'm confused by that part - wouldn't a specialist in the last turn stunt the growth we need?
 
Also, we can issue a "Remove or declare!" to Hammurabi. If he declares, we gain 14 gold, plus another pair of slaves from his settler pair next to Delphi. OTOH, that's likely to kick off our GA. Is it something we're willing to go for?

I think we should leave Hammurabi until we have a stronger military.

We are 'weak' compared to him; our last war was a gamble, that only succeeded because we kept it short; his core was sufficiently far away to make the logistics of his troop movements in our favour. I imagine that he has a lot of Bowmen, a lot nearer this time around.

IMO, we should spend the next twenty turns or so consolodating our expansion, improving our lands (we only have three cities fully improved), and building up our military.

War is all about timing, and it won't hurt to let him grow his cities for us - we need slaves more than territory.

Neither do I think we should be too hung up about avoiding our GA; I'd like to see a lot more Hoplites, particularly protecting our lux cities. They are our big advantage in this age, and we mustn't waste that advantage.
 
Pre-turn:

mm Athens and Thermopylae to give 10 shields apiece.
Switch most builds to Hoplite for one round;
Wake Archers at Corinth to accompany Settler to Ivory;
Wake Hoplite at Pharsalos for same purpose;
Wake Hoplite at Knossos to garrison Ephesus (Spices);
Use Archers from Delphi to block Babs Settler;
At Ithica, switch citizen to forest, Curragh now in 3 (from 6);
At Mycaenae, switch citizen to Iron, Rax now in 12 (from 17);
At Ephesus, switch citizen to forest, Rax now in 19 (from 38);
Athens, wake Hoplite, send to Corinth;

Turn 1)

Babs Settler turns away.
Hittite 3 man Chariots show up on the border....Hmm;
Egypt completes Hanging Gardens;
Thermopylae > Hoplite > Sword;
Corinth > Hoplite > Hoplite.
Move blocking Archer to tempt Bab Settler back - he's heading to where I was next going to Settle;
Shuffle some units to keep an eye on the 3MC's;

Turn 2)

Babs Settler ping-pongs back;
Shaka wants 26g - Shaka gets 26g;

Athens > Hoplite > Sword;
Pharsolos > Hoplite > Hoplite;
Sparta > Settler > Settler;

Turn 3)

3MC's enters territory - I hope they are on their way to Emar;

Delphi > Hoplite > Sword;
Ithica > Curragh > Curragh;
Knossos > Hoplite > Hoplite;

I'm not happy with those 3MC's on the doorstep - our deal for HBR is about to expire, so I take out some insurance, buy Maths for 15 gpt + 75g;

Turn 4)

More 3MC's appear; First two almost through our territory;
Thermopylae > Sword > Sword
Thessalonica founded NE of Sparta > Walls (10);

Turn 5)

Now I know where the Hittites were going - they are at war with Zulu;
Athens > Sword > Sword;

Turn 6)

Bab Bowmen heading West - could be they've joined the war - but on whose side?
Founded 'Rhodes' > Walls (10);
Argos Hoplite > Hoplite;
Sparta > Settler > Settler
We have room for two more cities on the peninsular - position units to block Hittite Settlers.

Turn 7)

Hiawatha demands 22g; I reluctantly agree - if this was a solo game, I'd have refused - but I'm not in a position to do so without team concensus.

I think before future sets, we need to decide who we will cave to, and who we will not; we are a lot stronger now.

Thermopylae > Sword > Sword;

Turn 8)

Athens > Sword > Sword;

Turn 9)

Delphi > Sword > Sword;
Thermopylae > Sword > Sword;
Pharsalos > Hoplite > Hoplite;
Ivory comes on line; this also connects trade routes to Hittites, Zulu, Iroquois and Korea. if we use these trade routes, it is essential that we only trade like for like, ie lux for lux, or lux for gpt; it is far too easily interupted, and we could so easily lose our rep

The lux has made a big difference - drop the slider two notches;
Hittite boat has dropped a Settler on our peninsular; in typical wasteful fashion there is no room for another city......yet :mischief:

Turn 10)

Thermopylae > Sword > Sword
Sparta > Settler > ? it is set for a Settler but there is no more space - we need to discuss builds here.

There is a Settler in place due West of Delphi;
There is a Settler in Thermopylae heading for the only space left (3 NE of Ephesus)
There are two slaves with movement points; they were heading to mine the sugar near Knossos, but there is a Hittite Settler/ AC in the way.
Spices will be connected next turn.

We need to take stock of our options now; our military is average to Zulu, Hittites, Babylon; we are strong compared to Iroquois and Korea.

Iroquois has some nice land, Spices and Iron to our East, but small towns.

Babylon, while stronger, has some nice land with a size six and a size five town within easy reach.

Both have techs to be given for peace.

My own immediate thoughts are to spend 10 more turns building Swords and Cats, then oscilate war between the two.

Elephantium: although you are up, please DO NOT PLAY until we have decided on a cohesive strategy; we have some very nice options here - lets not rush our decisions.

Team: I require some input please; no rush - download the save and have a think.


Spoiler :
Greece_350_BC.JPG




>>SAVE<<
 
I will look closer at the save tonight, but my first reactions are

Re: Demands - I think if our military is strong compared to theirs, I would tell them to stuff it.

Re: War. I like the looks of the Babylonian lands to appropriate first. Question. Is the settler in place W of Delphi going to provoke them?

Re: Sparta builds. Should we keep it on Settler? If we are going to war and are adopting a raze and replace strategy (to get more slaves), I think we should have some ready settlers for the replace part. Sparta has no Rax, so we would have to build one before producing military - would it even be ready in time for our planned war?

I have not checked backward through the thread yet, but did Hammy get a Bow victory during our first war, or is his GA still pending?
 
I will look closer at the save tonight, but my first reactions are

Re: Demands - I think if our military is strong compared to theirs, I would tell them to stuff it.

I don't think it's always that simple; avoiding the dogpile is important; I think we need to take each case on merit.
Also, I'm a great believer in making war according to our timetable, not theirs; 20g here and there hurts nothing but our pride.

Re: War. I like the looks of the Babylonian lands to appropriate first. Question. Is the settler in place W of Delphi going to provoke them?

I agree, I think; they will provide slaves, and Hiawatha's lands will still be there when we've finished.

The Settler doesn't infringe on the city square, so no.

Re: Sparta builds. Should we keep it on Settler? If we are going to war and are adopting a raze and replace strategy (to get more slaves), I think we should have some ready settlers for the replace part. Sparta has no Rax, so we would have to build one before producing military - would it even be ready in time for our planned war?

Again, I agree.

I have not checked backward through the thread yet, but did Hammy get a Bow victory during our first war, or is his GA still pending?

A Bowman won in Phaedo's set.

BTW, Hittites are likely to be in their GA, they had a 3MC defeat a Zulu warrior.
 
A Bowman won in Phaedo's set.

BTW, Hittites are likely to be in their GA, they had a 3MC defeat a Zulu warrior.
So once war breaks out, we will have all the Bows and other units they produced during their GA attack us, and then when they are spent we can counterpunch and take some cities?
 
So once war breaks out, we will have all the Bows and other units they produced during their GA attack us, and then when they are spent we can counterpunch and take some cities?

During the last couple of turns in my set, all visable Bowmen began moving SW; it's possible that they had joined the Hittite/Zulu war, though there was nothing to indicate on which side.
 
During the last couple of turns in my set, all visable Bowmen began moving SW; it's possible that they had joined the Hittite/Zulu war, though there was nothing to indicate on which side.
Even better. I love sitting back and watching AI nations pound on each other, then swooping in and reaping the benefits. It is preferable that they are fighting with Shaka against Murry, I don't think I want them having closer relations with the Hittites right now.
 
Got it. Here's my timeline:

Right now- look around the save, think about options, post my thoughts
Tomorrow - review team discussion
Wednesday - start playing

Though if we have a strong consensus tonight, I may play tomorrow night.
 
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