Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
No worries; perhaps we can use the time to provide further dotmapping.
Buce01: The Slavemaster
- Thread starter Bucephalus
- Start date
No worries; perhaps we can use the time to provide further dotmapping.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Since Phaedo requires a few days to play his set, I think it's a good time to project our thoughts beyond the next twenty turns, and look at our medium term strategy.
Our opening strategy has gone perfectly; actually it has exceeded my expectations.
Our war against Hammurabi will be over shortly, allowing twenty turns of peace to reach our limits of peaceful expansion.
My own thoughts are that once this limit is reached, we should be looking to push Hammurabi back, in an altogether more aggressive war.
I would see this war as having twin objectives; firstly as a land grab, but also as an opportunity to gather techs. Any Workers gained would be a bonus, because unless they have switched from Despotism, they will still be pop rushing.
We will have Horses and Iron hooked up in the next few turns, so I would expect us to be building up our offensive military, once they are.
We should be able to get Writing from Hammurabi as part of the settlement in this current war, so I would suggest Mathematics to be our next tech purchase; I say purchase because I don't see any value in self-research at this stage, and paying gpt keeps the neighbours peaceful - the Hittites in particular, will pose a threat for a long time to come.
I would think the priority techs to extort from Hammurabi, would then be Philosophy and CoL; our economy should be reasonably bouyant by then, and may allow self-research on Republic.
Our opening strategy has gone perfectly; actually it has exceeded my expectations.
Our war against Hammurabi will be over shortly, allowing twenty turns of peace to reach our limits of peaceful expansion.
My own thoughts are that once this limit is reached, we should be looking to push Hammurabi back, in an altogether more aggressive war.
I would see this war as having twin objectives; firstly as a land grab, but also as an opportunity to gather techs. Any Workers gained would be a bonus, because unless they have switched from Despotism, they will still be pop rushing.
We will have Horses and Iron hooked up in the next few turns, so I would expect us to be building up our offensive military, once they are.
We should be able to get Writing from Hammurabi as part of the settlement in this current war, so I would suggest Mathematics to be our next tech purchase; I say purchase because I don't see any value in self-research at this stage, and paying gpt keeps the neighbours peaceful - the Hittites in particular, will pose a threat for a long time to come.
I would think the priority techs to extort from Hammurabi, would then be Philosophy and CoL; our economy should be reasonably bouyant by then, and may allow self-research on Republic.
Phaedo
Emperor
Ok, well, I'm playing a bit of catch-up but we are obviously in a defensive war.
We are mostly facing spears, which is fine. There are 3 Bows on the way. If we don't want a GA we may have to attack the wounded one if it moves towards an empty Athens. It's unfortunate the mountain is open for the Bab spear to move onto but not the end of the world. Really, it looks like the best thing would be to avoid any battles until peace can be made. If we can get it in 3 I think that's more than possible.
We don't really have any good kill zones available at this point and our archers, with a 2 vs 3, aren't going to be overly effective offensive units against Bows.
Dotmaps would be nice but I'd say either the game to the SW or E of the sugar that would net a spice. Both would be 3rd ring and could get productive although my preference would be to go for the spices. Until we are set up with swords, I'd rather not look too far west to settle.
We are mostly facing spears, which is fine. There are 3 Bows on the way. If we don't want a GA we may have to attack the wounded one if it moves towards an empty Athens. It's unfortunate the mountain is open for the Bab spear to move onto but not the end of the world. Really, it looks like the best thing would be to avoid any battles until peace can be made. If we can get it in 3 I think that's more than possible.
We don't really have any good kill zones available at this point and our archers, with a 2 vs 3, aren't going to be overly effective offensive units against Bows.
Dotmaps would be nice but I'd say either the game to the SW or E of the sugar that would net a spice. Both would be 3rd ring and could get productive although my preference would be to go for the spices. Until we are set up with swords, I'd rather not look too far west to settle.
Phaedo
Emperor
Cross post.
I agree that the Babs have to be the target and once we have the horses and iron, it will be a much different game (namely one that we can take some control of). The Hittites ACs will be a pain but we are fairly close to their ivory so it wouldn't be hard to stop the production after war. I think we can figure out exactly how many they will have. Regardless, the Babs have to be next with their current expansion. It might not be a bad idea to have a quick go at Murry to deprive him of the ivory though down the line.
I agree that the Babs have to be the target and once we have the horses and iron, it will be a much different game (namely one that we can take some control of). The Hittites ACs will be a pain but we are fairly close to their ivory so it wouldn't be hard to stop the production after war. I think we can figure out exactly how many they will have. Regardless, the Babs have to be next with their current expansion. It might not be a bad idea to have a quick go at Murry to deprive him of the ivory though down the line.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
It's my guess that it will retreat to heal, but it's three moves from Athens anyway; just put a couple ofHoplites in at the last moment, and I'm confident it won't attack.
The Spear will be on a pillaging mission only, and there are no improvements on the mountain; if it concerns you, just put that reg Warrior (Delphi) on it - it still has full movement.
Yep, just play cat and mouse - they will talk peace in three.
Yes, the Spice is rather tempting, even though Hiawatha may view it as an aggressive settle if they have a city thereabouts before we do (and it's my guess that they have a settler already on it's way); I think an embassy with Hittites should be a priority once we have Writing - if Hiawatha gets frisky, I'd rather have Hittites on the inside spitting out, than on the outside spitting in.
Elephantium
Trampling the AI
I've been thinking about the Iron peninsula. How many cities do we want on there? Also, do we want CxxC or CxC spacing?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I think it's potentially incorrupt enough to warrant cxxc (bearing in mind that this a large map with a higher optimum city number), so there's probably room for two more, including the Settler about to settle, ; I've made some dotmaps, but I've not had time to upload them yet.
I think we should be looking to nab those Spices if possible, and the spare Ivory to the South, before anywhere else.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I have split these dotmaps in to regions - North, South, and West.
They are numbered only for ease of reference, not in order of preference.
It does not take in to account gaps that will be created by razed Bab cities in the next war.
North:
South:
West:
They are numbered only for ease of reference, not in order of preference.
It does not take in to account gaps that will be created by razed Bab cities in the next war.
North:
Spoiler :
South:
Spoiler :
West:
Spoiler :
Miles Teg
Nuclear Powered Mentat
No, Any disadvantage to this?
Anyways, heres how I see the situation, Move a settler to either the spices or the Ivory, I'm inclined to the Ivory but it's a war zone right now.
A luxury will help relieve some happiness issues in our core, and free up some troops were using as garrisons without upping the slider. On the other hand this will take away a slave crew to road it.
After the war's done we'll have some 'spare' hoplites, these can be used to block AI settlers from one or both of the luxes.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Under these circumstances, we take an attitude hit; in enemy territory it would count as ROP abuse.
No real harm done.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
The Slaves currently roading the Horses will be finished at pretty much the same time as the war, so they would be the obvious choice for connecting lux's.
If we can pick up both lux's, it will improve our economy greatly, so I think that should be the priority with our next two Settlers.
Phaedo
Emperor
Re: dot maps. The West and North were what I was thinking although I had some different thoughts about the South. I'll post a dotmap after work today.
Phaedo
Emperor
I'm finally ready to play. Classes are planned for tomorrow and Friday is a student health check day so my schedule has cleared a bit.
Before I played though, I wanted to run some things by the team.
1st, I plan to send the first settler to the spices after calling as quick a peace as I can.
This is what I was considering for the south. It is a bit risky (although I don't think overly so) and would require us being ready for an offensive war with the Babs ASAP. I think this is the plan anyway.
So here is my thought for the south
Green would come first. It gets the ivory and the game but would be under some cultural pressure form Shuruppak. This just means that we would have to take the city out fairly early. I don't think this is a problem and I think it could be done with the archers that are left over after we have our swords. It is completely corrupt and is food poor so the defenses will be minimal (in fact, it is such a useless place to place a city, I wonder if there isn't going to salt or oil there). Moreover, it will take more than 20 turns just to get a settler there even if it is the first city after the spices.
After that, the barb yellow will be a great kill zone for the Babs. We wait to place the other one until we are ready for a short war with Murry. Take a stack down with the settler and raze Aleppo. It will deny him ivory and would make a great defensive position for the south.
Now I realize that this is rather long term plan, but I like the idea of a surgical strike against Murry to deny him of ivory and I think we will be ready for an offensive war with the Babs relatively soon. I've always found alternating wars more effective when playing 0% science.
Finally, although the cities would be relatively corrupt, they have strategic value. Green would give us the immediate gain we want and the yellow don't have a time line on them.
Before I played though, I wanted to run some things by the team.
1st, I plan to send the first settler to the spices after calling as quick a peace as I can.
This is what I was considering for the south. It is a bit risky (although I don't think overly so) and would require us being ready for an offensive war with the Babs ASAP. I think this is the plan anyway.
So here is my thought for the south
Spoiler :
Green would come first. It gets the ivory and the game but would be under some cultural pressure form Shuruppak. This just means that we would have to take the city out fairly early. I don't think this is a problem and I think it could be done with the archers that are left over after we have our swords. It is completely corrupt and is food poor so the defenses will be minimal (in fact, it is such a useless place to place a city, I wonder if there isn't going to salt or oil there). Moreover, it will take more than 20 turns just to get a settler there even if it is the first city after the spices.
After that, the barb yellow will be a great kill zone for the Babs. We wait to place the other one until we are ready for a short war with Murry. Take a stack down with the settler and raze Aleppo. It will deny him ivory and would make a great defensive position for the south.
Now I realize that this is rather long term plan, but I like the idea of a surgical strike against Murry to deny him of ivory and I think we will be ready for an offensive war with the Babs relatively soon. I've always found alternating wars more effective when playing 0% science.
Finally, although the cities would be relatively corrupt, they have strategic value. Green would give us the immediate gain we want and the yellow don't have a time line on them.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Firstly, remember that we will need to honour our peace with Hammurabi, so none of this could happen any time soon.
My biggest objection would be the placement of the yellow dot city furthest South; that level of aggressive settling would almost certain lead to a DOW from Mursilis; even if it didn't, it's an almost guaranteed flip - we have no culture.
My suggested placing was primarily to grab those available Ivory, but also to act as a first line of defense against any Hittite aggression; being on a hill, and if we build walls, Hoplites would have a defence value of 6 - a seriously effective kill-zone.
My biggest objection would be the placement of the yellow dot city furthest South; that level of aggressive settling would almost certain lead to a DOW from Mursilis; even if it didn't, it's an almost guaranteed flip - we have no culture.
My suggested placing was primarily to grab those available Ivory, but also to act as a first line of defense against any Hittite aggression; being on a hill, and if we build walls, Hoplites would have a defence value of 6 - a seriously effective kill-zone.
Phaedo
Emperor
After sending the first settler to the spices we would need another settler built (That will take about 6 turns I think). Then the settler would have to cross the land which is a good 12 turns away. By the time it is near, our deal will be almost over and the green placement won't immediately cause war.
I wasn't suggesting placing that dot until we were heading for Murry anyway, hence the settler moving with the stack and settling it after Aleppo was razed. It could wait for quite a while.
My issue with the original placement is that enemies can attack from a hill, thus negating (or seriously reducing) the defensive bonus of the hill. From grass to a hill is a tough fight while a hill to a hill is pretty much even. The Babs could attack the original position from a hill too and not have to cross a river.
EDIT: I suppose the other advantage of my green dot would be that it would get connected by roads slightly faster (plains vs. forest), although I don't think that is a huge concern.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I think this falls in to the category of medium term strategic options, so let's continue to give it thought; I'd like to hear from the team regarding our strategic direction after the expansion phase.
Hammurabi is without Iron, and has high quality land adjacent to our territory - I think this makes him the ideal choice as our 'Sustainable Harvest'.
Mursilis, on the other hand, has Iron & AC's; I think he needs to be handled carefully for the time being. Our terrain is still largely undeveloped, and will remain so for some time, so building up the kind of force necessary for a successful campaign against Mursilis will not happen quickly.
Given who his neighbours are, it is likely that he'll be fighting Shaka or Hia-wots-is-name sooner or later, and IMO that is the time to be looking to take advantage with a surgical strike.
Hammurabi is without Iron, and has high quality land adjacent to our territory - I think this makes him the ideal choice as our 'Sustainable Harvest'.
Mursilis, on the other hand, has Iron & AC's; I think he needs to be handled carefully for the time being. Our terrain is still largely undeveloped, and will remain so for some time, so building up the kind of force necessary for a successful campaign against Mursilis will not happen quickly.
Given who his neighbours are, it is likely that he'll be fighting Shaka or Hia-wots-is-name sooner or later, and IMO that is the time to be looking to take advantage with a surgical strike.
Phaedo
Emperor
I agree that it is medium-term thought but what we choose will affect our city choice. It won't happen in my set so I can start to play but we should come to some consensus in the mean time. I will start tonight but won't finish until tomorrow night so there is time for input.
The Babs do look like a good option for our sustainable harvest. Murry scares me a bit. That is also why I suggested the different placement. But 3 attack units against a hill city with a wall (and we have horses for offensive attacks that can get back to safety ) is not that scary. It might also be a great chance to kick off our GA if we can drop some other cities before that.
The area we are talking about is going to be quite corrupt until we get the FP so there is no direct benefit (after getting the available lux) of pushing for Southerly settlements. In fact, I think if it is not strategically beneficial, we should go for open land rather than push against our neighbours.
I'm for CxxC on the northern peninsula, both for long-term productivity and cultural expansion to ward off Hittite settlements. In fact, because of the latter consideration, there is a good argument to grab the North quickly and then see what opportunities develop in the South (despite the ivory). Personally, I like an early war with Murry to deny him the ivory though.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
If we knew that was his only source of Ivory, it might be a valid thought, but his territory is fog-bound; also, we are 'weak' by comparison.
Phaedo
Emperor
Granted, it is a chance, but with 4 tusks in that group, I doubt there is another one on the fog-bound chunk we don't see. [We are playing continents right?]
The settler that I just founded: there's not really anything overly helpful to build. The city is shield poor semi-corrupt (so the coastal squares aren't overly helpful just now) and has no food bonuses. I have it on a dinghy. Maybe we can figure out if it is Murry's only source. The build can be changed to a city build after my set ends.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
A dinghy is fine - the best choice IMO.
