Buce01: The Slavemaster

[Elephantium]

Was it worth losing 3 happy faces in most of our cities when WW has six of our cities needing clowns? Is keeping the monopoly so important when no one can afford to buy the tech, and it's what all the AIs in the AI will research first anyway? Sorry, I don't see it as that big of a deal.

 

[Bucephalus]

Was it worth losing 3 happy faces in most of our cities when WW has six of our cities needing clowns?

Yes. Zulu have Incense for sale, we have a luxury slider, and as like as not it was a bluff. Furthermore, any chance of am early strike on Shaka is gone because it will be traded around pretty soon.

Is keeping the monopoly so important when no one can afford to buy the tech,

How do you know what deals between the AI are due to end, giving them gold to burn? Ottomans currently have 1400g from somewhere - also Nationalism which they have traded Medicine to the Arabs for.

and it's what all the AIs in the AI will research first anyway?

And while they do so, they are not researching other monopoly techs.

Sorry, I don't see it as that big of a deal.

Then you are doomed to remain a Monarch player.

 

[Elephantium]

Then you are doomed to remain a Monarch player.

Now that's just unnecessarily insulting. I believe you owe me an apology.

 

[CivActuary]

mmKay, let's just settle down - argueing won't get us anywhere.

I'm downloading and will look through the save tonight - And I need to play tonight or tomorrow, since I'm out from the 26th through the 4th, so I'll take a look at this and be back with thoughts after the kids are in bed.

 

[CivActuary]

OOB:
2 Settlers
90 Slaves
26 Riflemen (26v)
48 Cavalry (42v/6e)
2 Cannon
2 Galleys
1 Cav Army
12 Medieval Infantry (11v/1e)


State of the Empire:
Athens (9) grows in 14, Cav in 4
Thermopylae (11) grows in 6, Cav in 4
Corinth (9) grows in 20, Rifle in 5
Delphi (8) grows in 15, Cav in 5
Knossos (10) grows in 6, Cav in 7
Sparta (8) grows in 4, University in 5
Pharsalos (7) grows in 9, Cav in 6
Argos (7) grows in 15, Cav in 9
Ephesus (8) grows in 18, Cav in 5
Thessalonica (9) grows in 13, Cav in 4
Eretria (9) grows in 4, Settler in 1
Gortyn (6) capped, Aquaduct in 2
Artemisium (8) grows in 5, Cav in 8
Rhodes (9) no growth, Cav in 1
Troy (6) no growth, Market in 1
Ithaca (6) no growth, University in 7
Mycenae (6) no growth, Market in 12
Phocaea (7) no growth, Market in 7
Sicyon (8) shrinking, Market in 13
Ellipi (10) grows in 2, Cav in 1
Herakleia (2) grows in 5, Harbor in 15
Megara (7) no growth, University in 2
Marathon (8) grows in 4, Cannon in 1
Apollonia (3) grows in 1, Settler in 5
New Athens (2) grows in 1, Courthouse in 60
Miletos (6) grows in 10, University in 5
New Corinth (1) grows in 4, Harbor in 54
Syracuse (4) grows in 9, Settler in 9
Mytilene (9) no growth, Market in 12
Apolyton (2) grows in 10, Settler in 10
Halicarnassus (4) grows in 11, Courthouse in 31
New Delphi (1) grows in 6, Walls in 19
Pergamon (8) grows in 12, University in 15
Tegea (5) grows in 3, Market in 26
New Sparta (2) grows in 6, Cannon in 34
Ashur (2) grows in 9, Cannon in 19
New Thermopylae (2) grows in 7, Cannon in 34
Babylon (1) grows in 5, Cannon in 34


So we are building
2 Aquaducts
5 Cannon
11 Cavalry
2 Courthouses
2 Harbors
5 Markets
1 Rifle
4 Settlers
5 Universities
1 Wall


Zulu, Hittites, Ottos, Dutch, Egypt, and Arabia all have Democracy on us.

We have 652 gold in the bank and are making 305gpt

Pre-Turn Strategy and questions:

-Steam Power in 2, so get ready to rail (and hope we have coal!)

-Hold the Hittites at bay. They only have 5 cities, so I don't think we want to take any more, let Shaka deal with them while we build up forces.

-We have 10 turns left on the alliance and ROP with Shaka, so position attack forces for the end of that deal.

-Peace treaty with Babylon ends in 5 turns, I'm assuming we want to continue that if asked.

-There is an unused MGL - do we want another cav army or the Mil Acad/Heroic Epic? If we are attacking the Zulu in 10 turns I am leaning toward the Cav army.

- Going to bump up the lux slider and MM a little - we can afford to and still get Steam Power in 2.

- Tech after Steam? Electricity and SciMeth going for ToE, or Industrialization?

 

[Elephantium]

I'm also leaning towards another Cav army - Building Armies with a Mil Academy city will take too long to be that useful, and if we really want the HE, I think we can afford to build it with shields rather than a leader.

In solo games, I usually try for ToE, but if we do that, we'll probably sacrifice US - which would come in really handy for the latter half of our war vs. Shaka. Then again, we might be able to snag both if our prebuild timing is just right.

Speaking of which, we should think about starting prebuilds soon, otherwise it'll be too late.

 

[Bucephalus]

Now that's just unnecessarily insulting. I believe you owe me an apology.

If you want respect, you need to give it.

I find the whole tone of your post adversarial, and I too am offended that you should arrogantly dismiss my opinion without having the courtesy and respect to ask why I hold it.

 

[Phaedo]

Wow, it's been a busy weekend here. I hope Buce and Tusker can work out their differences. I also think PMs might be the best place to do that. Take a deep breath and remember it is just a game.

I'm sorry I joined the war without consulting the team, that was a mistake and I apologize. So we lost our Nationalism monopoly. That was unfortunate but it is a setback rather than a game losing decision. I think there is a chance to gain insight from the situation. The happy faces were a temporary situation where a monopoly is a limited time offer. Because keeping people happy only costs us money it is the easiest remedy. A monopoly will get us all the money we spend and more.

If we are still going to go after Shaka, then we can assume that he will have rifles to defend. If I were going it alone, I'd probably make the second army and use it to cover 2 attack forces that were relatively heavy on cannon. A couple stacks of 10 cannon will keep any caves we send alive. We should destroy the road network leading into our land so we know where he'll come. limited (or no) roads with a strategically open city or two will allow him to enter our territory and lose his cavs to ours. It might be a bit of slow going, but it will weaken him and we will be able to get what land we desire while building our slave force.

That's my $0.02 anyway.

As for tech, I'd like to get factories. We'll be at war with Shaka for a wile and the extra shields will help. Taking one of our producing cities off military builds is something we will be able to afford to do.

 

[Elephantium]

I hope Buce and Tusker can work out their differences. I also think PMs might be the best place to do that. Take a deep breath and remember it is just a game.

Me, too. I've PMed Buce, so I guess we'll see.

I'm sorry I joined the war without consulting the team, that was a mistake and I apologize. So we lost our Nationalism monopoly. That was unfortunate but it is a setback rather than a game losing decision. I think there is a chance to gain insight from the situation. The happy faces were a temporary situation where a monopoly is a limited time offer. Because keeping people happy only costs us money it is the easiest remedy. A monopoly will get us all the money we spend and more.

When the Arabs came a-demanding, no one had any money to speak of, so I was still operating under the assumption that we really couldn't sell the tech for anything worth speaking of. Denying the demand and waiting a few turns might have given us a lucrative trading opportunity, but knowing that the AI often researches Nationalism first, I thought that we'd only have the monopoly for another half a turnset anyway. It's a shame you can't save the game during a demand to consult with the team - in light of your comments, Phaedo, I would have told the Arabs to take a hike.

If we are still going to go after Shaka, then we can assume that he will have rifles to defend. If I were going it alone, I'd probably make the second army and use it to cover 2 attack forces that were relatively heavy on cannon. A couple stacks of 10 cannon will keep any caves we send alive. We should destroy the road network leading into our land so we know where he'll come. limited (or no) roads with a strategically open city or two will allow him to enter our territory and lose his cavs to ours. It might be a bit of slow going, but it will weaken him and we will be able to get what land we desire while building our slave force.

I agree. We should definitely bulk up on artillery - we won't have enough cavs to beat Shaka without it.

As for tech, I'd like to get factories. We'll be at war with Shaka for a wile and the extra shields will help. Taking one of our producing cities off military builds is something we will be able to afford to do.

Speaking of war with Shaka, what's our aim? Take a layer or two of cities and get some slaves? Get land and slaves and cripple him? Take him off the continent entirely?

For the first, I think we can manage that in 10 turns - build some cannons, another Cav army, and some rifles, and send them in to prune the Zulus. It shouldn't take long at all.

For the second, we'll need to push deeper into Zulu territory to raze a couple of his core cities. It'll take a while to get there, and I see WW becoming a significant problem.

For the third, I think we'd need to switch to Monarchy to pull it off - it would take long enough that WW would cripple US.

 

[CivActuary]

This is taking longer than I thought. Only through turn 2. No coal.

PreTurn
Lux to 10%. MM a bunch of cities, putting clowns back to work.
Sci to 70%, Steam still in 2. We are now +436gpt.
Off we go

IBT
A Hittite Caraval moves N, another moves S
The Iro naval units move away.
Some WLTKD celebrated
Ellipi: Cav --> Cav (due in 7)
Rhodes: Cav --> Cav (due in 5)
Marathon: Cannon --> Cannon (due in 5)
Eritria: Settler --> Cannon (due in 7) (I don't want to build another settler just yet as I do not want the pop to drop below 7, and a Cav would take a lot longer)
Troy: Market --> Aquaduct (due in 20)
Dutch complete Magellan's Voyage

1060 AD Turn 221 (1)
Sci to 60%, Steam still in 1
New Pharsalos founded
Build our 2nd Cav army, load it up.
Short rush the Market in Mytilene, as there are already 2 clowns there. Also short a Cav.

IBT
Hittite Caraval still sailing N.
Iros request an audience. They want peace, but do not have anything to to give for it. I'll sleep on it.
Steam comes in, set research to Industrialization, due in 7 (at 90% Sci). No coal shows up in the box yet.
Megara: University --> Market (due in 20)
Ephesus: Cav --> Cav (due in 8)
Gortyn: Market --> Cannon (due in 7)
Mytilene: Market --> Cannon (due in 8)

520 AD Turn 167 (2)
Hittites have lost Ugarit, its now in Shaka's hands, but have gotten Alaca Huyuk back.
Yup, No coal in our borders. Looks like the Zulu have at least 3 sources, and the Ottos have 2, but as we have the monopoly on Steam, we cannot trade yet.
What to do? I hate doing nothing with the workers.


Here's the save
>>FILE<<.

I'm going to bed now, I'm tired. I'm going to play as much as possible tomorrow before packing to leave, but I doubt I'll get through the whole 10.

I think our goals in war with Shaka should be to cripple him. He's our biggest threat.

 

[CivActuary]

Fellas, I'm real sorry about this, but I'm going to have to take a skip for the remainder of my turns. There's just too much to do tonight before I leave and I won't have time to give the rest of this set the proper thought and attention it requires.

Good luck and I'll catch you when I get back on the 4th.

 

[Elephantium]

We need coal ASAP. To that end...

Spoiler :

Option 1 (red):

Muster the bulk of our forces at Pergamon and follow the red arrows once the treaty with Shaka expires. Raze both Harran and Tyrana, then use a combat settler to found a city at the yellow dot. If we rush a Harbor, we don't have to worry about that supply being cut off by the Hittites re-expanding.

Option 2 (blue):

Muster our forces north of Hubishna. When our deal with Shaka expires, raze Hubishna and Mauch Chunk, then settle the teal dot.

Option 3 (green):

Starting right now, move units to Alaka Huyak. Raze and replace, of course, filling in the territory we'll need to guarantee a path.

When our deal with Shaka runs out, we're right at Mauch Chunk's doorstep - we can have the Coal online within three or four turns of declaring war.

What does everyone think? Is this doable?

 

[Phaedo]

The rest of the week is going to be quite busy for me but I'll try to look at the situation. This is definitely a situation that need a good solid plan that we are all on board with. At first blush, I think we don't need rails to continue our plan of rushing units for an early Zulu attack and obviously his coal (or both) will be included in the goals.

Really, the issue is one of gold. Let's get out the calculators and figure out what we can rush in 2, 3, and 4 turns and make a decision on where our best value lies. If we go the cannon route, remember that we will need a combat settler for each turn that we move the cannon and that that settler has to be in place the turn before. Our cannon would have to spend the last turn in enemy territory (obviously covered by an army). Strategically losing cavs might be more cost effective but I'm not sure. A mixed force and a stack of cavs might be the way to go. I am talking out of my bum here and haven't looked at the save but there are decisions to be made and I think taking a little time to pause, think and plan might be appropriate.

 

[Bucephalus]

This is a tough call.

I can see a way to get the coal at Mauch Chunk, but I don't think that a protracted war of invasion is viable or desirable.

I need time to properly evaluate the situation but the one thing that I'm sure of is that Cannon are of no use, offensively at least. If we decide to go for the coal, it requires a commando-style raid followed by trench warfare and peace as quickly as Shaka will allow, IMO.

I say if because we have so far ignored the option of selling Steam to Shaka and buying his excess coal.

 

[Miles Teg]

Hello everyone.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to continue this game. I'm going on vacation for a month. Obviously I cant sit around playing civ during that time. So with regrets I'd like to be removed from the roster. I'm sorry if I played my turns un-wisely or didn't contribute when needed.

Edit: Ya guys, I'm going to come back to the game.

 

[Bucephalus]

Hello everyone.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to continue this game. I'm going on vacation for a month. Obviously I cant sit around playing civ during that time. So with regrets I'd like to be removed from the roster. I'm sorry if I played my turns un-wisely or didn't contribute when needed.

Sorry to hear that, Miles; thanks for your contribution - you did fine.

Enjoy your vacation.

 

[Elephantium]

Hello everyone.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to continue this game. I'm going on vacation for a month. Obviously I cant sit around playing civ during that time. So with regrets I'd like to be removed from the roster. I'm sorry if I played my turns un-wisely or didn't contribute when needed.

So, are you dropping out entirely or just going on skip for the next month? Personally, I'd be happy to see you retake your spot in the roster when you get back.

 

[Phaedo]

I agree that a month off isn't a huge deal. I'm sure you would be welcomed back by the team. we are in a bit of a down period at the moment anyway but should probably be back at it by next week. I'm a bit slammed with RL and I'm going to try top squeeze out my set in SoK so I'm not going to be overly available and CivA is out until the 4th, might it not just make sense to wait for him to finish his set?

I promise I will look at the save and post thoughts tonight. 4649

EDIT: the numbers are a short hand for: "please be kind to me" in Japanese

 

[Bucephalus]

CivA is out until the 4th, might it not just make sense to wait for him to finish his set?

I think that's best; we have lost focus in this game and a few days out might help us to regain it.

 

[Elephantium]

Speaking of focus, what should we focus on next? We've talked a bit about war with the Zulus, and Buce mentioned *trading* with Shaka for the coal we need.

My feelings are: Trading with Shaka will only make him more powerful, so I'd like to avoid that. OTOH, he's powerful enough that winning a slave-harvesting war against him is uncertain. We might actually end up LOSING a few cities to him.

Either way, I think the Hittites are done for - they're down to 5 cities, and the Zulu advance continues.

Looking back at the map, could we simply *settle* a city near Tyrana to get the coal there? It's inside Hittite territory, but I don't think we have to worry about them.