Budget

[eyrei]

First Budget Proposal

Current Treasury: 480(will be 476 on the turn we come out of anarchy)

Treasury Allocation:

Foreign Affairs: 30% (144 gold) I feel we need to set the basis for good future relations with our neighbors. This money can be used at the discretion of the foreign minister, though I suggest using it to esablish embassies.

Military: 30% (144 gold) As we are still at war with several civs,
this money can be used at the discretion of the military leader. Also, the military department may build barracks and walls as it wishes, in cities that border other civs. Note, this is a referance to the domestic departments willingness to pay upkeep, the governor of these cities must also be consulted.

Culture: 30% (144 gold) As we can still build culture buildings that will benefit from the age bonus, this money can be used at the discretion of the culture minister to rush-build. It should pay for a library in a city that has put a few shields towards it.

National Treasury: 10% (44 gold) I realize this is a small amount, and normally, a good chunk of what is allocated now for foreign affairs will be in this category. Right now we need embassies, however. The domestic department has given what would have been it's share to the culture department for the time being. This will be updated soon. The science department will not have a budget until the Great Library is obsolete. Since we cannot trade resources and luxuries yet, the trade department does not have a budget. Once we can, I hope we will actually make money off trade, rather than spend it. We do have iron and horses, plus several luxuries, so most trade should be outgoing, hopefully for gold.

The allocation of science/luxuries/taxes will be reassessed after the next turn. Currently, it should stay at 100% taxes, with one citizen acting as a scientist as we research chivalry.

This is not a final budget, but please respond soon if you have any objections or comments.

Also, a secretary of the treasury is needed to keep track of these
numbers, as departments are free to save their money. I hope that the Domestic Department Deputy, Donsig, will take on this task.

 

[Daaraa]

Is the 30-30-30-10 % splits based ont he current "bank account" or the current and future income status?

I believe our income is in the 150 gold per turn range. Would the splits you are talking about split the 150 gold per turn 45-45-45-15 ?

Or are you talking about splitting the income as it comes it including the current treasury?

Or is this a one time grant splitting up the current treasury? (144 gold is not much in this day and age. After all, we're coming up on the 5th century )

In any case I agree to this type of managment of the income. I feel that the foreign affairs department needs a peice of the pie to estabvlish embassies and solidify our position as the superpower. Also the military needs a have a budget in place otherwise we will always end up argueing over guns or butter. The culture and domestic departments kind of go hand in hand as one benifits the other.

 

[donsig]

Is the 30-30-30-10 % splits based ont he current "bank account" or the current and future income status?

Since our Domestic Leader has included actual amounts of gold (144 gold each to Foreign Affairs, Military and Culture, with 44 to remain in the treasury) I think he is suggesting an allocation of our current funds with the idea that new funds go into the treasury and will be divvied up at a later date so as to give him time to reassess our country's needs.

Also, a secretary of the treasury is needed to keep track of these numbers, as departments are free to save their money. I hope that the Domestic Department Deputy, Donsig, will take on this task.

I just had a discussion today with my wife about a business venture she wants to embark on. She had asked me if I would do the book keeping for her. Knowing my wife as I do I pointed out to her that I can't keep track of what she is doing if she does not inform me of what she is doing! I would point out the same thing here. I am more than willing to record how much each department spends provided the information on our expenditures is availabe - either from the various departments or the turn chat log.

 

[eyrei]

I hope the departments can provide you with information about spending. What needs to be done, is someone from each department needs to post the use of any money before the turns begin. Then, when the president uses it, he needs to make this very clear in the log.

All money gained during the turn is temporarily put in the national treasury until the turn is over. In an emergency, the president can use this money, but normally it will be split up after the turn is complete. This money can be accessed by a department during the turns, if the issue is put to a vote before hand. Departmental funds may be saved, so this money needs to be subtracted from the total before funds are parcelled out after a turn. For example, if the department of foreign affairs has 25 gold left after establishing embassies during the next turn, and the national treasury is 250 after the turn. Only 225 is divided at that point between the departments.

Note that a department does not need any sort of approval to use money that is in its budget, unless it will require upkeep(gold/turn). This should help streamline the game a little as our empire grows.

I am still trying to figure out how to deal with governors and provinces. My thought, at the moment, is that a governor would petition the domestic leader for funds to rush a project. In many cases, these funds would just be offered without a request, as the needs become obvious.

Please post any ideas or questions you have about this. We should be able to implement a system like this, though it may take a little while to work out the kinks.

 

[donsig]

I will try to work on a book keeping thread tonight. In addition to the treasury amount there will be trade and foreign ministry deals that that generate lump sums of gold and possibly gold/turn as well. We may also have deals where we pay gold/turn. These will all have to be reflectedin our budgetary process.

 

[eyrei]

Unless otherwise allocated ahead of time, any money from trade or diplomatic agreements should remain in the national treasury, barring an emergency, until the end of the turn. Gold/turn agreements in which we pay, I will generally put to a vote if over 2 gold/turn. As the citizenry will have voted, these will not come out of any departmental budget.

We will probably need to decide how many units our military is allowed, particularly if we mvoe to republic, as too many units could seriously affect our economy. Hopefully, though, our economy will be able to keep up, as we need a strong military.

 

[Daaraa]

I completely agree with the idea that the monies gained during one "turn" be put in the treasury to be divided up at the end of the "turn." I think this is the smartest and simplest approach.
The bookeeping thread would be a good idea. I know I will follow it closely. Just try to keep it simple for people who have a hard time following the numbers. (ie Balance sheet and income statements would be good. But a statement of cash flows might be too much )

With my current experience with civ 3, going from Despotism to republic is an ok jump in the units/gold end of it as the significantly reduced corruption makes up what is needed. I think we will be ok as a republic with the current number of units.

I feel quite confident of our nation making a sucessful transition from despotism to republic. That includes the relationships we have with the other civs and the income situation. It really does help that we wiped out the americans and are hammering the egyptians that other nations have backed off. If I remember right, everyone want peace with us and the trend of improving "attitudes" towards our civ by other civs is being displayed.

 

[Justus II]

I see the advantages of putting all ongoing income into the treasury until the end of each chat turn, as it allows for better planning, but based on tonights turns, we may need to make some allowances for adjustments or borrowing against the treasury to complete purchases. For example, Falcon had 144 gold on the first turn, to use to upgrade two horsemen, but the total turned out to be 160. He had to "borrow" that from the treasury, otherwise his 144 would do no good until the next turn chat. Similarly, the next turn I wanted to use my budgeted 144 to rush a library, which cost 152. I assumed we had 30% of our first turn's income (51*30%=15), so no problem, but if we dont count that, I either had to "borrow" the 8 gold, or request the president to release that amount from the treasury. That may be the best solution, request presidential approval for budget overages, as long as they are small (10-15%). As I said, I don't want to complicate the process, but I also don't want to see anyone unable to implement their plans because they are 15 gold short, while we build up 300 in the treasury.

 

[Daaraa]

I think the "borrowing" rule is a great idea. I think it should be defined as a percentage. (ie if you have 144 and you need 150 which is like 4% no problem but maybe if you want like 25% that might be a bit much without a vote of some kind)

 

[eyrei]

I suggest that up to 5% of the total cost of an action may be borrowed if their is that much in the discretionary budget with the approval of the president. If the money would have to infringe upon another departments budget, the president may also approve this if it is an emergency. If the leader of that department is at the chat, he may simply agree to loan some gold to the requestor.

I suggest that leaders post about what they need, and how much each part of their needs will cost, so that money can be allocated based on this. Right now, I am doing it in a very general sense based on my perception of the general needs of the empire. If you need something, ask, and if I can, I will include that money in your budget. If we are diligent about this, there should only need to be borrowing in emergencies.

 

[Falcon02]

maybe we should hire an accountant? to keep track of all this, and we can post all expenditures in the accountant's thread. Leave you and the rest of us officials more time to worry about the important stuff, rather then figuring out how much money we owe, how long till it will be paid off, and how much money we have left.

 

[donsig]

Foreign Affairs did not spend any gold.

Military spend 96 gold on a barracks and 80 gold upgrading 4 spearmen to pikemen.

Culture spent 144 gold on a library for Abydos and 56 on another rush job.

We have 960 gold in the treasury.
345 belongs to foreign affairs.
145 to culture.
169 to military.
301 left for reallocation.

We are currently making 10 gold/turn because of increased spending on research now that the Great Library has been rendered obsolete.

 

[donsig]

Science may need a budget for buying techs.

Trade may need one for making trades or rushing markets.

Military still needs money for upgrades esp. with gunpowder around the corner.

Does foreign affairs with to return part of it's savings to the general fund?

Culture still needs money.

The provinces should be given an appropriation to help pay expenses on their improvements.

Domestic should have a little gold for general puposes.

We still need a reserve fund.

Don't forget the budget!

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig
Does foreign affairs with to return part of it's savings to the general fund?

Probably not. I still need to do a game analysis after my brief hiatus but I've got projects earmarked for more than that much money already.

 

[eyrei]

New Budget

National Budget: 10% should be in luxury spending, the rest should be arranged so that we spend the most we can on science while making at least 10gpt.

Military: 20% (we are no longer at war)
Trade: 20%
Science: science funds are allocated as part of the national
budget
Foreign affairs: the foreign affairs department has a nice
treasury already, please let me know if more is
needed for some reason.
Domestic and culture: 60% (would the governors please post any
ideas about how to spend this)

 

[donsig]

I strongly recommend that close attention be paid to our tax/sci/lux rates as micromanagement can speed research whithout losing gold. I am wary of locking in rates.

Resetting the lux rate to 10 % is a good move now. Doing that and putting some entertainers to work and lowering sci to 40% will still get us gunpowder in 2 turns and net us 26 gold/turn.

When one turn away from gunpowder we should see if we can lower the sci rate to gain more gold while still getting gunpowder in one trun. The sci rate could then be upped after gunpowder is learned. We should consider running a small deficit if it speeds up research. Lowering the sci rate when a turn away from a tech usually recoups the deficit and more.

The following cities have entertainers that need to get to work when the lux rate is put back up to 10%:

PDX, Pherris, Washington, Khatovar, Philadelphia, Boston, New York.

 

[donsig]

Who pays for techs if we buy them?

Why is culture's appropriation now bundled with domestic? Not only makes book keeping difficult but deciding when to rush cultural buildings now means culture must get permission from domestic?

Using eyrei's newest budget here are the figures:

Military: 145 saved + 60 (20%) = 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 345 gold saved
Trade: 60 gold
Science: nothing to spend
Culture: 145 gold saved + ?????
Domestic & Culture: 181 gold (60%)

Total 960 gold

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
I strongly recommend that close attention be paid to our tax/sci/lux rates as micromanagement can speed research whithout losing gold. I am wary of locking in rates.

Resetting the lux rate to 10 % is a good move now. Doing that and putting some entertainers to work and lowering sci to 40% will still get us gunpowder in 2 turns and net us 26 gold/turn.

When one turn away from gunpowder we should see if we can lower the sci rate to gain more gold while still getting gunpowder in one trun. The sci rate could then be upped after gunpowder is learned. We should consider running a small deficit if it speeds up research. Lowering the sci rate when a turn away from a tech usually recoups the deficit and more.

The following cities have entertainers that need to get to work when the lux rate is put back up to 10%:

PDX, Pherris, Washington, Khatovar, Philadelphia, Boston, New York.

I agree that some management of this will need to be done during the chat turn. In the cities of Philadephia and New York, I would like to try to get WLTK days going, which may happen if those entertainers are left where they are. If this does not cause a WLTK day, then they should be put to work.

I do not want to run in a deficit unless we are rushing for something in an emergency. We will need money for many things, including the purchase of technology.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
Who pays for techs if we buy them?

Why is culture's appropriation now bundled with domestic? Not only makes book keeping difficult but deciding when to rush cultural buildings now means culture must get permission from domestic?

Using eyrei's newest budget here are the figures:

Military: 145 saved + 60 (20%) = 229 gold
Foreign Affairs: 345 gold saved
Trade: 60 gold
Science: nothing to spend
Culture: 145 gold saved + ?????
Domestic & Culture: 181 gold (60%)

Total 960 gold

The reason for the grouping of culture and domestic is to provide more options as far as rushing. I suspect most of the buildings we rush will be cultural buildings. Go ahead and keep them separate if it makes it easier, and if the combined gold is used to rush it will come out of the culture department budget first if it is a cultural improvement, and out of the domestic department's first if anything else.

 

[Cyc]

Right now it looks as tho Doemestic and Culture have 576 gold

Trade and Military each have 192 gold

that's a 60/20/20 split.

with the general fund getting 10%, that's 110% of income.