Bugs 2.1 The Gauntlet Revisited

Good turns, Brother Bede. Got it, but won't be able to play until tomorrow. Too bad about the rep, I thought we would still be able to trade, but that's a risk we took. I'll keep my eye out for trade options with Korea, maybe we can still broker something along the way. Also, if any of the others declares war on China, they should accept gpt again. I look forward to completing our harbors and connecting our empire!
 
Looking over the save, I see the concern about our unit support costs, currently we're paying 64gpt. But I don't really see any expendable units, except for a few reg warriors on East Island, which I'd like to replace with spears, at least. We are still considered weak compared to everyone but the Byz, so we can't afford to disband units, and we certainly need our workers. The only other option is growth, so I am going to focus on getting more towns into cities for better unit support, and maybe build another one or two.

The tech situation isn't any more hopeful. Everyone else has at least Invention, and based on the numerous Musket sightings, Gunpowder must be pretty common as well. Our only chance for a 2-fer is on Monotheism, which China and Korea lack. Of course, with our tarnished reputation, buying Monotheism won't be easy, in fact I can't get past doubtful right now. Our best bet would be for Korea to get it before China, as they will still take our credit. I do notice Carthage has Spices for sale, at 11gpt. We can drop lux to 20%, saving 16gpt, so it's a net gain of 5gpt, I make the deal. We might even be able to drop it further once the markets finish.

About the only good news is the Wonder cascade is dead, but the bad news is that's because the AI built them all already. :( Lisbon in particular is loaded with 4, including the Great Library, that would be a nice grab about now. (But not very realistic...) In fact, Lisbon is already in the running for a 20K city, if it gets that far, they are at 1472 culture. That happens to be almost triple our whole civilization. Looking around, most of our border cities have no culture at all, that's just asking for flips, which we can ill afford. I think I've discovered another priority for this reign.

Other than the Spice deal, and some MM to speed up a couple builds, there's not much to do, so I hit enter.
IBT: Istanbul-Spear>Temple, Bursa-spear>duct, Uskadar-Library>settler, Sinkope riots and gets a taxman.

260 (1): Not much, move some workers to mine grass, clear jungle. At the Iron city, the current worker will complete the road next turn anyway, so the other two move to chop a forest and hurry the harbor along.

270 (2): Iron road is complete, that worker moves to chop another forest. No point in rushing the harbor yet, let our mainland harbor complete, and the forest chops to reduce the cost.
IBT: Edrine-market>library, Konya-harbor>duct.

280 (3): Not much, send a galley back toward Byz waters to start exploring again, shift a spear to East island.

290 (4): OK, the opportunity we've been waiting for! Korea has Monotheism, and China doesn't. Korea takes our Ottoman Express card for 30gpt, and we get Monotheism, but China says that and our 280g cash isn't even close to Invention. :eek: So much for our 2-fer chance. We don't really have much more gpt to offer, anyway, even if they did take our credit, so this may have been a bad deal, but at least we can see a little further into the AI's lead. Portugal and Byz are up Chivalry and Theology, Carthage has just Chivalry. We are just too far down to broker our way out of this one, I think.
IBT: Istanbul-temple>library.

300 (5): China has Monotheism now anyway. Lisbon is at 1617 culture, gaining 29cpt.
IBT: Iznik-market>duct. Byz and Port start Sistine's.

310 (6): Forest chops are done, so I pay 72g to rush the harbor at Salonika.
IBT: Salonika-harbor>library (I'd hate to have our iron flip away!).

320 (7): Nothing much, more worker moves.
IBT: Istanbul-library>pike, Aydin-Market>library.

330 (8): Nothing.

340 (9): Nothing else, except Theo asks our galley to leave. Finally brought our budget back in balance.
IBT: Istanbul-pike>pike, Edrine-library>MDI, Antalya-market>library.

350 (10): Did the worker moves, the Sultana is docked off of Uskadar, most garrisons unmoved.

Those last 3 builds are obviously open for change, as nothing has accumulated yet. Also, Bursa will finish the duct this turn, and should be MM for population growth for a while, but will be available for military production.

At this point, we probably need to discuss our next direction. I don't see any brokering opportunities in our future, so if we're going to climb out of this tech hole, we'll have to use the pointy stick. Unfortunately, we're still weak compared to our neighbors, but now that we have Iron, we could start building some kind of offensive force, mostly MDI's and some trebs. Without being able to upgrade, it's going to be a more gradual buildup, but Istanbul is at 15spt, and can build enough pikes to beef our defenses, which will free our obsolete warriors and archers to be fodder at the front.

China is probably the easier target, although they have less tech to get, they also don't have muskets yet, and would give us some much-needed expansion room. Even if we could get just 3-4 cities, and Invention, we could get back in this game, I think. They do have Chivalry, but no horses, so we would be on an even basis, unit-wise. Anyway, it's something that will take a couple rounds of concerted effort, but I think it's our best chance to break out of this stagnation.

A couple final notes, the harbor at Kafa will finish in 2 turns, connecting the Eastern island to our luxuries, and then our tax/clown/scientist can be put back to work. I put the scientist on Theology, figuring our priority now would be to somehow get Invention, so we can take our time on the upper branch. Also Uskadar is working on a settler, due in 5. I had intended to use him to settle on a border jungle spot NW of Istanbul. This would poach a few tiles from Carthage, including a mined hill on the river, and share a first-ring tile with a city, but would also be first-ring to our capital, and with a quick library might only be a minimal flip risk. It would definitely be a productive location. Otherwise, there's not too many spots left, or it could be saved to resettle any cities that get razed in any upcoming wars... ;)

Here's our Republic, with the proposed city site marked in red:
 

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Bede

And the save:
 
ok, looks like I can't play till tomorrow night (Wed.) so any input is welcome.

what is the situation with carthage? i'm thinking that we could quickly take the horse town on our eastern island, as well as pop a couple of towns to the north. then build knights like crazy, trying to weather the storm. of course, if they have a bunch of knights then maybe that's impossible, but at some point we will have to take those horses because we will never be able to buy them.
 
Carthage has Chivalry+Iron+Horses, so I assume they have knights. I also believe they have Muskets, I thought I saw one moving during an IBT, but didn't have visibility of a garrison to confirm. At the least, they will have NuMercs everywhere, whereas China still has plenty of Spear defenders. That was why I suggested China. I agree we will need those horses, but we don't have Chivalry anyway, and aren't likely to get it soon, so I don't see a rush. After we expand a bit against our weaker neighbor, we might be in a better position to make a grab for the horses timed to coincide with Military Tradition.

Another option, if we do go to war with China, would be to try and get one of the other powers to declare on them as well, which should then allow us to use credit again with that power. Just a thought!
 
well, that's the kind of idea's i come up with before the 1st cup of coffee :lol: looks like carthage is out of reach till MT and i get to play setup man :)
 
Preflight check: take a look around. Change Istanbul to MDI (if we’re gonna get offensive, we should do it sooner rather than later). Bursa will build pikes at the same rate Istanbul builds MDI’s. Bahh, on second thought, I will build a pike or 2 then spit out Trebs with Istanbul. Other cities will build the MDI’s.
Note that we have a Chinese Swordsman fortified next to our iron city. I will have to get an archer or 2 down there to help clear him out in case of war. Move the Sultana down to Konya to get ready to transport 2 units.

IBT: Bursa aqueduct -> MDI

T1: 360AD I test Portugal and Carthage to see if they’d entertain an alliance vs the other but both refuse outright.

IBT: Istanbul pike -> pike; Kafa harbor-> market

T2: 370AD Pike goes to Antalya; archer from Antalya goes to Konya. Yikes, Korea is up Chivalry, Invention, and Theology

IBT: Carthage and Portugal sign peace. Portugese building Sistine’s and Copernicus

T3: 380AD move some workers. Roading the mountain near Istanbul to gain some gpt.

IBT: Carthage wants to renegotiate wine deal. Instead of 10gpt, he now wants 5gpt + 149g. I do the deal just as some extra insurance to keep them from invading again before we’re ready.

IBT: Istanbul pike -> pike; Carthage building Sistine’s; 3 Carthage galleys move in between Uskudar and Kafa

T4: 390AD Move some workers around

IBT: Edrine MDI -> MDI; Bursa MDI -> MDI; Uskadar settler -> archer; Koreans are building Sistine’s

T5: 400AD I note that we could gain 20gpt by lowering the lux slider to 10%, however, Istanbul and Edrine will riot. Funny thing is, Edrine and Bursa have the same improvements and the same happy faces but Edrine gets 1 more unhappy face when lux slider moves down. Galley with 2 archers goes towards Salonika.

This is really frustrating right now. Can’t research, can’t trade, can’t steal.

IBT: Istanbul pike -> treb; Aydin Library -> MDI

T6: 410AD just move workers around. Clearing marsh near Bursa.

T7: 420AD Mugla founded on the proposed site.-> library (don’t want it to flip); looks like a Dromon is interested in cutting our Eastern Island in half. Block him with a warrior.
With the hill, Bursa is doing 13spt. Need another forest to get it up to 14spt (MDI every 3T)

IBT: Istanbul treb -> treb; Antalya Library -> barracks

T8: 430AD Well isn’t that special, the cleared marsh near Bursa reveals a BG. Just what that town needed. It is mined and we can now do 14spt. Edrine now works a mined desert to do 8spt (MDI still in 5T but no waste and Antalya gets another irrigated plain.
Archers land in Salonika and 1 forest chop finishes.

IBT: Bursa MDI -> MDI; Ankara harbor -> library

T9: 440AD Fire the taxman in Ankara so we cut the library build time in half. This causes us to go back into the negative gpt. I seriously consider merging 1 worker to Edrine but decide instead to send him up to Mugla to clear the jungle.

IBT: Istanbul treb -> treb; Sinop harbor -> pike

T10: 450AD Move some workers again.

I have 2 workers within range of the jungle chop near Mulga and the towns of Antalya and Edrine. If we merge both into Edrine we could do 10spt right away, provided that 1 of them doesn't become a belly dancer.

The trade situation is hopeless.

China seems to still have pikes and spears protecting their cities so we should be able to do some damage. Just hope we’re ready before they start upgrading to muskets.

I'm foresting and choping around our irontown to hurry the library along. If you see a road without a forest, that means I chopped that tile.

bugs21-450AD.JPG
 
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Bede
 
Good turns, Grahamiam, on getting the Pointy Stick started! If you build it, they will use it... ;)
One thing I thought I mentioned, but I may have missed, I had chopped the forests near the Iron city (Salonika) during my turns, to speed the harbor, and then replanted. I'm sorry if you rechopped the two tiles I replanted, if they have a road, it's been replanted. Once the borders expand, though, I think there are some other forests available to chop.
 
no problem, only cost us 1 chop and with the reduced length of time to do it, i think it cost us 2T. i was planting new forests on the tundra and then choping to move that library along. we definitely can't afford to have that town flip.
 
I played one turn and already violated two rules. :lol:

I traded our only iron to Portugal for 90gpt (and buy from Carthage with half the price) and upgraded one spear.

I could replay, but I just don't know what to do now. I was deadly wrong - the variant rules are just restricting almost every move. :sad:

Our economy sucks. We are making -2gpt and things will only get worse. Carthage now asks more for the spices deal as well. We need to disband more units and merge more workers.

Economy aside, I think instead of China we should get to Carthage first.

1. China has riders
2. we cannot get a resource by the war against China
3. there are 3 Chinese cities around on the land of our iron city and we probably will lose it.

I'll pause for a while as my day has been ruined by the damn rules.
 
you saw chinese riders? i didn't see one the whole time. i though they were down horses?
wow, this game is really tight now. iirc, the advisor indicated that carthage had knights and muskets, right? china's best unit was MDI.

ideas (not necessarily listed best to worst :) )
1. maybe we should revolt to monarchy to get rid of the unit upkeep costs and get more free units. can't be worse than what we have now. we would have to wait for at least 4 more turns till the 30gpt deal expires.
2. crash into china in 10-20T with everything we have. thier iron source is near Beijing so that would be the objective.
3. play nice till MT or just before MT. we have a 30gpt deal due to expire during your turns. disband useless warriors to free up the upkeep costs.

i agree this game has gone desperate and i'm not entirely sure how it'll end up. but then again, that was the challenge to this game :)
 
Maybe you are right. I forget if they have horses or not.

I'll get to this tomorrow. In the mean time discussion is welcomed. IMO we have to attack now, and I'd rather die in the field. :)

Not sure about revolting to Monarchy though..

We would have done much better if we had not been forced to disband a granary early in the game.
 
At least on my turn, I had checked, and China does not have horses, and (until Astronomy anyway) shouldn't be able to trade for any. I agree that taking their Iron source is probably a good objective, would make a safer source than our current one, and then give us the option to trade.

If you've only played one turn, I'd probably replay the turn, one upgrade is no big deal, but the Iron deal is a long-term thing, as well as quite risky. If we lose our Iron source, our rep is broken worse than it is now, and if Carthage attacks, we lose our own iron right when we need it most.

I'm not sure whether Monarchy is worth the cost of the anarchy, as even though it increases our unit support, we lose the trade benefit, we may not come out that far ahead. I would definitely hold off until the current trade deals expire, then see what our economy looks like, I would also prefer to wait until we have our offensive force ready to attack, then maybe revolt at the beginning of the war.
 
Concur. I would not hurry into war.

How far are we from MT? If China lacks horses, though, hitting them with a dozen or so footsloggers and and a couple of trebs (more like 18, so that we can take the near island), one battle group west to the coast then south, second group south, third group on the near island, defenders only on the other island).
 
We are a LONG way from MT, we don't even have Invention yet. That should be one of the objectives for hitting China, as we have no way of getting tech otherwise. And I wouldn't be in too much hurry to switch governments either, our war with China might be just what we need to bring unit costs back in line, we can sacrifice, er send our brave warriors and archers to fight gloriously against China, reducing our support cost, while at the same time we will be adding cities, to increase our free unit support. Obsolete units are great for pillaging missions and catpuring workers, which will be key since we can't purchase/trade for any (no workers in the peace deal either, remember). On the peace deal, try to keep our GPT free after current deals expire, as the peace table is our best chance to use credit for techs, and we'll want to have as much gross income available as possible to get the best deal we can.
 
one good thing we are doing is building units fast. we can build, in 10T, approximately 7~10 MDI's and 5 Treb's. This will pretty much eat up the boost we get from the Korean trade ending but we should be ok to start a war soon. if we can get Beijing and the extra iron, we could then legally pull off that trade to Portugal and start living in the black again.
 
preturn: Now I really feel the restriction of this variant. I could sell our ONLY iron to Portugal for 90gpt, then we could upgrade one warrior to MDI every turn, but in this game we are not allowed to!

The goal is to produce more military and go after China in about 10 turns, at the same time recover from the economical crisis.

I disband a warrior.

I renew spices deal with Carthage and pay 13gpt+5g to avoid being caught in a surprise. We are making -2gpt.

I disband another warrior in Salonika. By the way I don't understand why we are building library in it. We need walls.

IBT Edrine MDI->MDI. Iznik Aqueduct->treb.

(1)460AD: I disband one of our galleys.

IBT Istanbul treb->pike. Bursa MDI->MDI.

(2)470AD:

IBT Byzantines start Copernicus.

(3)480AD: merge a worker. We are making +7gpt despite some units being built.

IBT China demands 21g. I cave.

(4)490AD: We got some payment back and make +35gpt.

(5)500AD: ZZZ

(6)510AD: I merge two workers.

IBT Carthage starts Copernicus. Portugal starts Magellans.

(7)520AD: hire scientist in Istanbul to still get MDI in 3 turns, so Ankara can grow faster, but will switch back next turn.

IBT Portugal demands TM+13g, I cave.

(8)530AD: I rush library in Salonika by 28g.

(9)540AD: Korea has horses. We can buy it with 12gpt+4g, mainly as a denial to China. But I'll leave to next leader.

(10)550AD:

We have 10 MDIs, 5 pikes and 15 spears.

We should rush a wall in Salonika before declaring. I reinforced a pike to it. We should send another one pike and maybe a couple spears as well. 2 pikes + walls should hold better. We cannot afford to lose that city.

I think we should play defensively in the western side and aim to capture/raze Xinjian and Chengdu. I'd like to raze them but then we need two settlers. For each city we need at least 5 MDIs (and some trebs).

Note once we declare we'll lose our iron unless we build a harbor in the eastern island.
 
Good buildup. The library at Salonika was to prevent a flip, but I agree, walls are needed too.

Note once we declare we'll lose our iron unless we build a harbor in the eastern island.

I thought we had harbors on each island already? I'm sure we do. Now the Chinese cultural boundaries may temporarily block our trade route, but once we take a couple cities, that should open things back up.
 
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