Build Science at writing.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by VanitysFiend, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. VanitysFiend

    VanitysFiend Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    32
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Antrim
    Does anyone think this would improve the game? For me build science only really gets used to get me to currency cause it's only one tech away. If build science was available at writing I think it would make it to easier to pursue alternative strategies without as much risk of choking your economy, but I don't want to implement it if it's just gonna make things easier without providing much for alternative strategies.

    Also means I can move build espionage to alphabet...
     
  2. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Messages:
    461
    Still pretty much a noob at this game but to include research building along with libraries seems like it would seriously overpower the Writing tech, at least that early in the game, and depending on the difficulty level/AIs in your games, not do much to Alphabet either way. Alphabet is usually a trade-for tech unless you play on low difficulties with crappy teching AIs, where you have to do it yourself, at least from what I gather.

    Here's my reasoning:
    After Writing, assuming you have whippible population, Libraries aren't but a handful of turns away at most, and in cities with even one decent food source tile that's +7.5 science per city, while running as low as 3 pop to keep maintenance down and 0% slider to bank gold for binary research (which I recently found out about and works wonders!). Of course there are also the eventual bulbs (which I still don't fully grasp the strategy of, but I know it's done by players). It's a major way to survive expansion and still tech towards important things like Currency which will actually help fix your economy. At least that's the case for expand happy players like me who are still guilty of wrecking their economies without even warring in the early game. It's a less involved way than Oracle-ing into Caste System and running scientists that way, can be done earlier, and doesn't rely on winning a Wonder race.

    Research building included that early means you could easily skip building the Library in the first place, and just grow the city and improve hammer tiles. It would defeat the purpose, I think. Or with high food+hammer spots, do both Maybe moving Libraries up to Alpha would be in order in that case? Or maybe having the option to either build science OR farm a Great Scientist is the kind of early flexibility you're wanting in the early game?

    I think Writing serves its purpose fine as it is: Open Borders generates you some potentially better trade and is the first step to real diplomatic interaction before Alpha/tech trades, Libraries are a guaranteed early way to run scientists to keep your research alive under economic stress, and you can eventually bulb some stuff (just get Alpha first), especially if you're philosophical.
     
  3. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,716
    Would have preferred it to be available from the beginning. That is the civ 1 player in me talking (you can buy prod and sell buildings in civ 1 from 4000 BC onwards). The metagame for deity seems to be to regen maps until you get at least a moderately commercial start. I think having research available would have shaken things up, constructively, on all levels.
     
    jmas likes this.
  4. Lazteuq

    Lazteuq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    Location:
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    I think it is kind of a good thing that you can't build research early precisely because it makes it so possible to crash your economy without research building. That is one of the largest early game challenges, and I think the early game wouldn't be hard enough if you could freely convert hammers to beakers.
    Also, Writing is already a super important tech, while Alphabet is mostly just important for tech trades and building research. Alpha isnt necessary for any other tech until printing press.(Optional for currency) On large maps where you know lots of AIs who you can trade with, alpha can be critical. However, I think it might become nearly worthless if could already build research and you were in a situation where tech trading wouldn't do much. Tech trading is meaningless if your neighbors are more backwards than you, if they hate you, or if they just don't like trading. Shouldn't Alphabet be important for more than just tech trades?
     
  5. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    10,119
    Location:
    Chicago
    Especially for those of us that play tech trading off.
     
  6. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,137
    Location:
    Latvia
    with tech trading off AI delay Alphabet for very long time (sometimes just around Education/Astro time so they can adapt to settings too :D ) so it might be impossible to tell what techs they have without Alpha.... and I skip it until time for Printing Press :D (same as I skip entire reiligion techs road, including Monarchy -who needs happiness if I whip all game :D and cities stay at 4-6-8 size), entire Aestetics line (just later for Heroic maybe?), sometimes also CoL and CS... and might completely ignore Lib road (if lose Lib race.... well, you have nothing on battlefield) and aim for Cannons/Grenadiers/Frigates/Priavteers (can starve down coast cities) directly :D If building research would provide some % bonus for that city, this would be powerful tech :) but player wants to work wealth to get research rate higher so.... its specific thing in game (most times for OCC or small empire and for early rush when can't get to Currency other way)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  7. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    10,119
    Location:
    Chicago
    Same here. My Cuirs are already well on the war path.
     
  8. Lazteuq

    Lazteuq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    Location:
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    On a larger, more controversial scale, allowing building research in the very early game would be taking IV in a more civV direction of making it difficult to fail. One thing I love about IV is that you have to react to the situation and keep your plans flexible, or you will get destroyed, if not by an AI, then by harsh economics. The game doesn't let you have a universal strategy, even in the early game. Building research with writing would probably diminish that.
     
  9. VanitysFiend

    VanitysFiend Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    32
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Antrim
    I've decided you guys where right. I think I was just modifying the game to suit my playstyle, which tends to prioritise alphabet and currency.
     

Share This Page