"Builders" as the new Workers... now with charges.

[AriochIV]

Well, this should completely nullify the pillage-repair exploit in Civ V. That alone is a good thing. I guess we'll see how it works. I will miss worker steals though; I thought it was a good way to represent a very real part of history. Rome had plenty of slave labor supplied by defeated enemies.

I think stealing builders will still be a valuable pastime, it just will require continuous effort instead of a cheap one-time snatch and grab. Good point about pillage-repair though; you'll need to think twice about pillaging.

Do you think that the builders will be a lot cheaper compared to workers?

Being alpha, the numbers are sure to change, but the video does show the relative costs in the production menu.

Spoiler :

On a sidenote, did anybody wonder what that improvement with the civ5-academy icon was that the builder could build?

Noticed that, not sure what to make of it. They may be playing fast and loose with some of the Civ V icons as placeholders.

 

[m15a]

One of those changes that I did not expect but makes a lot of sense (in gameplay terms). Sort of a long time coming, considering that an "issue" with Civ I and II was that improvements would be built on every tile just because.

Now, improvements come with an initial cost, which some people have been arguing for, but the builders still maintain some of the familiar experience of working tiles.

 

[Cerilis]

I think stealing builders will still be a valuable pastime, it just will require continuous effort instead of a cheap one-time snatch and grab. Good point about pillage-repair though; you'll need to think twice about pillaging.


Being alpha, the numbers are sure to change, but the video does show the relative costs in the production menu.

Spoiler :

Noticed that, not sure what to make of it. They may be playing fast and loose with some of the Civ V icons as placeholders.

I noticed that there were also all the resource improvements (unlike civ5 live), maybe it's something like that? Or something like a bridge, considering you can't build roads anymore yourself. Though it might be a bit technologically early for that.

 

[Amrunril]

Not sure what to think about this yet. It's a bit interesting to note that after BE removed work boats and allowed embarked workers to construct sea improvements, Civ VI is going in the opposite direction and making workers function more like work boats.

Mechanics aside, I think the name change is definitely a good idea. It better reflects what the unit actually does, and it probably wasn't a good idea, terminology-wise, to call the construction unit a worker while also describing citizens as working tiles.

 

[Tirius]

I'm kind of optimistic about this change. Early game workers were all well and good, but late game they could become a chore to manage on a large empire - either they were everywhere building railroads and such or you'd have them sit idle to wait for the next improvement tech.

I'm hoping the new road mechanic will lead to a less busy map too - I was never a fan of how road spam looked on the map in older Civs. The map is pretty - let's not clog it up too much.

 

[cazaderonus]

I really dont think this change is a dumbing down of the game.

I d even say it s the opposite.

Let s be honest there isnt much interest nor strategy in waiting ten turns to get a plantation. It adds nothing to the game. It s just prioritization, only with long completion time.

So insta building of the improvement, limited task force per unit, and then retirement of the builders seems appealing. Having to produce builders over the entire span of the game will add another permanent component in the decision on what to build. Which adds to the strategy. It also negates snowballing a little. A civ v game where you can steal 2 workerd, maybe 3 thanks to barbs, is completely gamechanging.

 

[mudblood]

My question is how does this change pillaging? Does it completely destroy an improvement? Or do you use an entire builder charge to "repair"?

 

[stealth_nsk]

My question is how does this change pillaging? Does it completely destroy an improvement? Or do you use an entire builder charge to "repair"?

In gameplay terms those are equal The latter is better as you see what was previously built there.

Also, I wonder how district repair work. Since they wanted to make destroying districts viable tactics, I doubt it's repaired by workers. Is it possible what we need to rebuild destroyed district from scratch?

 

[Lucius_]

I was a bit put off by the idea of no more workers, but builders has definitely grown on me. In the early game, I don't see there being much difference, except improvement time. Every city is still going to need 1 builder early on and a second one a little later in the build queue. Just like, it seems like everyone here, at a certain point, workers just weren't fun anymore and became a chore. I'm very excited about instant build improvements and rushing wonders, but not so sure about the lack of road building. This is one of those features, I think, it will be difficult to guess how it plays in comparison without playing it myself.

 

[historix69]

The builders remind me of the pioneer in colonization who used up his tools and had to be recharged in a city.

What I don't like is that in Civ6 the player looses control on building roads ... roads were always very important and not being able to directly build roads in strategic positions will influence military tactics ...

 

[Cerilis]

The builders remind me of the pioneer in colonization who used up his tools and had to be recharged in a city.

What I don't like is that in Civ6 the player looses control on building roads ... roads were always very important and not being able to directly build roads in strategic positions will influence military tactics ...

People are already speculating about military engineers in later eras though and being able to build bridges and stuff.
Also, the tooltips in the footage always said "ancient road". *hint hint*

 

[SammyKhalifa]

In gameplay terms those are equal The latter is better as you see what was previously built there.

Also, I wonder how district repair work. Since they wanted to make destroying districts viable tactics, I doubt it's repaired by workers. Is it possible what we need to rebuild destroyed district from scratch?

Maybe pay a gold cost to do it?

 

[mudblood]

In gameplay terms those are equal

Ah, I thought that was implied.

Now I think about it, I have a lot more questions about builder charges: Like, do you have to take a charge to clear a forest and then another to build an improvement? And are there any variations among improvement costs now? I.e., is building a farm on grassland the same as on jungle or forest or marsh or whatever?

 

[Cerilis]

Ah, I thought that was implied.

Now I think about it, I have a lot more questions about builder charges: Like, do you have to take a charge to clear a forest and then another to build an improvement? And are there any variations among improvement costs now? I.e., is building a farm on grassland the same as on jungle or forest or marsh or whatever?

I also wondered what will happen with forests and builders. I guess we have to wait and see. Maybe it takes a turn to remove it, and one to build, but what happens to the production yielded by chopping? Does it go to the city or replenish the worker charge?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I suspect the 60-turns demo which was played by reviewers will be available on E3 (with all usual remarks of it being older build). In this case things like this could be tested, recorded and shown.

My thoughts are:
- Using more than 1 charge at a time don't sound correct to me. So I guess removing forest and building farm on it could be done with 1 charge.
- Production yeld from chopping was an interesting feature for wonder race, but with instant improvements it may look too cool. And it would make China UA a little less interesting, because other Civs will be able to speed up Wonder production using Builder charge as well. Of course they'll need a forest for this, but, on the other hand, they'll get useful improvement at the same time. So likely forest will be just chopped.

 

[AriochIV]

Having the dirt Ancient Roads appear automatically as a result of Trader activity is somewhat realistic, but Roman roads and modern roads were and are incredibly expensive and require a great deal of planning; railroads even more so. I'm hoping that players will have more control over later road types, as I have to assume these will be critical for military movement, especially with the harsher terrain movement rules.

The fact that the early roads are called specifically "Ancient Roads" is encouraging, suggesting that they will be upgraded at some point before railroads.

 

[mudblood]

I also wondered what will happen with forests and builders. I guess we have to wait and see. Maybe it takes a turn to remove it, and one to build, but what happens to the production yielded by chopping? Does it go to the city or replenish the worker charge?

Yes. Lots of questions about how this will work exactly--I could see a tech tree progression with more advanced builder-type units, but who knows? We are going to have to wait and see.

Workers were one way in which the different terrains expressed their flavor in earlier iterations of the game. There was micromanagement of workers I hated, but I'm not sure how I'll feel if the character of different terrains is flattened with this charge system.

 

[Ikael]

One thing that I am wondering is if certain improvements will consume more "charges" than others, for examples, roads and farms taking just 1 charge VS fortresses consuming 2 or channels making the builders outright dissapppear.

Having the dirt Ancient Roads appear automatically as a result of Trader activity is somewhat realistic, but Roman roads and modern roads were and are incredibly expensive and require a great deal of planning; railroads even more so. I'm hoping that players will have more control over later road types, as I have to assume these will be critical for military movement, especially with the harsher terrain movement rules.

The fact that the early roads are called specifically "Ancient Roads" is encouraging, suggesting that they will be upgraded at some point before railroads.

I do believe that the videos mentioned that latter in the game you get access to engineering corps units that allow you to build proper roads without needing to restort to trade routes. Not to mention that certain unique units such as legions will probably grant earlier access to that type of ability, too.

I think that modern roads getting unlocked at the "bureaucracy" tech (or will it be a Social Policy now?) would be a quite realistic approach, hitting a very sweet timing too!

 

[AriochIV]

I do believe that the videos mentioned that latter in the game you get access to engineering corps units that allow you to build proper roads without needing to restort to trade routes.

I hope that's so, but I didn't hear anything of the sort in either quill18's or Marbozir's videos, and since they only played the early era I'm not sure how they would find that out.

 

[Nick31]

I hope that's so, but I didn't hear anything of the sort in either quill18's or Marbozir's videos, and since they only played the early era I'm not sure how they would find that out.

Maybe it was in an article, but I definitely heard/read someone say that with "Military Engineering" you could get a more advanced capability to make roads. I'll see if I can find it .

Edit: It's in the IGN Article on New Features

"It also contributes to his larger goal of reducing tile-by-tile micromanagement, while dramatically increasing the role of both domestic and international trade until you research military engineers in the mid-game and can build your own roads."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/25/civilization-6s-new-game-changer-features