Building Forts vs. Founding Colonies

[Kailric]

As some of you know I been working on a Forts mod for Westward Ho. And in my play testing I been brain storming ideas. Forts are cool for a few situations but then for a lot of situations just founding a new Settlement would be a better and simpler idea. There is basicly no penalty for founding colonies instead of building forts.

Lets Compare under the current rules I have for forts:

-Forts take a few turns to build, Colonies are instant
-Forts spread culture, but so do Colonies
-Forts require only 1 FortCommander to gather resources, Colonies take one colonist per resource but ultimately can produce more
-Forts can not produce manufactured goods, Colonies can
-Forts require support from a Settlement, Colonies can support themselves
-Forts offer defense bonus, So does Settlements
-Forts have no Rebel Sentiment bonuses, Colonies do

Thats some of the comparisions. In Civ4 there are larger requirements in founding a new city, you have to have enough population then you have to build the settler. Then there are the penalties of unhappiness and curruption. But in Col there is no penalty for founding multiple Colonies and compared to Forts most times they are a better option.

Thats why I propose this idea...

After a Player has found his first Settlement you can no longer found another. In order to gain new Colonies a player must first build an Outpost. Outposts would work much like Forts do now in my mod. Then after certain conditions are met you can upgrade the Outpost to a Fort. Forts would then work much like Colonies do except you are only allowed to build of up to level 2 buildings. Then again after certain conditions are met you could upgrade your Fort to a full Settlement.

Some ideas on Forts:

Forts would only have the primative buildings and no Town Hall. They would still require some support from your Main Settlement. Depending on what the surrounding resources was the fort would gain a few Free first level buildings. Say if there was plenty of woods for Fur, you would get a free Fur Trader's House, if there was Hills and Mines for ore you would get a Blacksmith's house and so on. Then after a certain population and a number of buildings is built you can Build a Town Hall thus converting the Fort to the standard Colony.

Well, thats some of my initial ideas.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

How about making cities start with no buildings? You could also make every basic building also require a carpenter's shop so that if you don't have a carpenter's shop you must build it. Then set the YIELD_HAMMERS cost for the carpenter's shop to how many turns you wish for it to take to be built (as the city gives one free hammer yield by default).

I like the idea of being able to turn forts into colonies, as it provides more flexibility in the player's choices, and makes sense.

 

[KJ Jansson]

Wow! I was away for a little over a week and missed so many interesting things. Let's make up.

Unfortunately I had no possibility to test your "Forts" or the latest beta version of "The Spread of Imperialism" of Androrc the Orc.

Thats why I propose this idea...

After a Player has found his first Settlement you can no longer found another. In order to gain new Colonies a player must first build an Outpost. Outposts would work much like Forts do now in my mod. Then after certain conditions are met you can upgrade the Outpost to a Fort. Forts would then work much like Colonies do except you are only allowed to build of up to level 2 buildings. Then again after certain conditions are met you could upgrade your Fort to a full Settlement.

Some ideas on Forts:

Forts would only have the primative buildings and no Town Hall. They would still require some support from your Main Settlement. Depending on what the surrounding resources was the fort would gain a few Free first level buildings. Say if there was plenty of woods for Fur, you would get a free Fur Trader's House, if there was Hills and Mines for ore you would get a Blacksmith's house and so on. Then after a certain population and a number of buildings is built you can Build a Town Hall thus converting the Fort to the standard Colony.

Well, thats some of my initial ideas.

To my opinion, it is very easy to implement. Androrc the Orc provides the right solution. What is the difference between Outpost and the newly created city? Only the lack of it Town Hall. You wrote:

Outpost or Forts would only have the primative buildings and no Town Hall.

In "1492: Global Colonization" I chose this method. The just-created-town has no buildings at all except BASECAMP. BASECAMP produces nothing. This is the starting point of new city. Any building (improvement) requires BASECAMP. More complex improvements (buildings) require BASECAMP and CARPENTER_SHOP, etc. Details you can see in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml.

You can specify a sequence of appearance of buildings in the new settlement. As a variant:

- BASECAMP (at the base of settlement, no protection, no bells)
- Outpost (the first building, the protection of settlements, no bells)
- Fort (the second building, a stronger protection of settlements, no bells)
- Any combination of buildings you want.

NB: Very interesting moment!

- You can stop any improvement on the Fort level and build nothing more in the Fort. Here no bells production.
- Or you can build inside the Fort only those buildings that are necessary for your development. In my case - Gunpowder workshop, for instance. No bells production, too, if no administrative buildings inside the Fort.
- Or you can build the Office buildings like Village Hall, Town Hall, City Hall and turn your Fort into a full-fledged city with usual Bells production.

Very easy and no problems with Fort screen. Great idea, Kailric!

 

[ZoMbiE_113]

Good idea. How about suggestions for improving it?
The settlers and other units can not found colony. Only special units has that option (see Builder Wagon in Moderator Action: Dawn of a New Era). At a high price for the founders of the colony will be used two ways to create a colony.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[ZoMbiE_113]

- BASECAMP (at the base of settlement, no protection, no bells)
- Outpost (the first building, the protection of settlements, no bells)
- Fort (the second building, a stronger protection of settlements, no bells)
- Any combination of buildings you want.

How about:
- BASECAMP - no culture borders, can work only in the central plot, no bells
- Outpost - culture borders 5 plots (1 central, 1 north, 1 east, 1 south, 1 west), no bells
- Fort - cultur borders 9 plots, no bells. The central plot yields output automatically (as now) and not available for work.

addition:
All units can found only BASECAMP, special units (like Builder Wagon in Moderator Action: Dawn of a New Era) can found just a normal settlement.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[KJ Jansson]

Good idea. How about suggestions for improving it?
The settlers and other units can not found colony. Only special units has that option (see Builder Wagon in Moderator Action: Dawn of a New Era). At a high price for the founders of the colony will be used two ways to create a colony.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Moderator Action:
The Builder Wagon from "Dawn of a New Era" is one of possibilities for Land colonies. Unfortunately, such units couldn't be used for the creation of colonies on 1-tile islands.

To my opinion only armed units (soldiers, etc) could build a colony on both land and 1-tile islands. Such unit became "Fort Commander" or similar and produce nothing from Food or products, as it made in the "Fort" mod. Kailric could correct me, if I'm wrong.

Such "new colony" requires 2 Food per day to survive.
This Food could be obtained from the main city, if such "colony" is located on Land and has a route to the main city. Or produced from neighbouring tiles by the unit (for instance, by Farmer on land or by Fisherman on 1-tile island).

The ship with armed unit and some quantity of Food on board could be used for "new colony" creation on 1-tile islands:
Round 1: unload armed unit on the island.
Round 2: this unit builds a "colony". Then the ship enters in the colony and unloads the Food. Without Food the 'colony' must disappear on Round 3.

Some additional building materials like Wood (timber) and maybe Stone are required to improve a colony and to build Outpost, Fort, later maybe Fortress.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[ZoMbiE_113]

The Builder Wagon from "Dawn of a New Era" is one of possibilities for Land colonies. Unfortunately, such units couldn't be used for the creation of colonies on 1-tile islands.

Why? The Builder Wagon from "Dawn of a New Era" can be transported by ship.
If you do not like the look of the unit, you can make another kind of "cities builder".

To my opinion only armed units (soldiers, etc) could build a colony on both land and 1-tile islands. Such unit became "Fort Commander" or similar and produce nothing from Food or products, as it made in the "Fort" mod. Kailric could correct me, if I'm wrong.

Yes, Fort could build only armed units. But what about BASECAMP? Maybe the ability to build BASECAMP give only pioneers and expend in the construction tools?

 

[M07]

Why? The Builder Wagon from "Dawn of a New Era" can be transported by ship.
If you do not like the look of the unit, you can make another kind of "cities builder"

Dazio and Me had an other idea, when a Builder Wagon will be integrated in a ship(not in the holds ship), the ship will have a command that will permit it to found a new port colony
.