Building Re-Costing Project

Just have not had the time to test since you posted the changes with your SVN commit. And just wanted to make sure I was understanding what and why you were testing with the 3/5ths.
OK. Cool. You also brought up a very legitimate point of concern here too. Hopefully this skeletal structure of cost values will prove able to compensate for those concerns if we simply dial in the overall cost modifier accurately.
 
See my previous post Edit about EraInfos and the iConstructionPercent tag.
 
EDIT: All <iConstructionPercent> for all Eras is currently set at 100. So if the coding lets us actually use this Tag from the EraInfos file then we can make adjustment as a global from this file as needed. And I would rather do this than adjust from the GSInfos file.
I'm not sure if the math would be quite the same because of the order of calculation perhaps but technically, these could all be set to 60 to zero in on where it seems we should be at based on current testing then, and the GS Infos could then be reset to 100 for normal and 500 for snail (which they still are on the SVN.)

I'll try it. :)

These are really the golden tools there to help adjust for era noticeable peaks and valleys. Perhaps it might work to make the prehistoric just a little cheaper still. And if the cost curve doesn't sweep fast enough, we could go like:
Prehistoric : 50
Ancient : 60
Classical : 70
+10 to each cumulatively etc...

This is why it was so important to create a smooth incremental curve transition in the base cost platforms.
 
I found that the Elder Council was going off of the obsoleting tech. If a building seems waaaaay over priced that might be the case. Fixed that and committed era adjustments on iConstruction from 100 to 50 for now. It's much more playable at this point. A good start for playtesting.
 
I found that the Elder Council was going off of the obsoleting tech. If a building seems waaaaay over priced that might be the case. Fixed that and committed era adjustments on iConstruction from 100 to 50 for now. It's much more playable at this point. A good start for playtesting.
Is your setting of 50 based off of Snail GS only? Did you run a test game on Eternity and Normal too?
 
Is your setting of 50 based off of Snail GS only? Did you run a test game on Eternity and Normal too?
I haven't yet, but it should all just be according to ratios from there right? Still, testing is necessary obviously but anything close to 100 would've been really upsetting for any gamespeed so it couldn't hurt to offer a little temporary improvement.
 
Well that's why I need backup from guys like you who can give me some feedback on how it plays out. I'm not too familiar with that speed of play so I can't speak for it much.

That said, this setting does make buildings seem super expensive compared to what we're used to at first but the way it ramps forward, I'm not finding that to be a problem, at least not on Snail speed which is my testing standard (I've always let every other speed be whatever it happens to be by rights of the ratios taking care of scaling). What it DOES do is make you value the production you are spending to the point that you might find it more useful to go for smaller gain chunks faster than large gain chunks you can beeline for. Quite interesting how 'best practices' can change due to something as simple as a change in the costs of buildings.
 
I'm trying to sort out the ideological question, because it's hard to give feedback when I don't know what's the ideal goal.

So there are three proposed factors for what the production cost should be based off of:
1. Real-world material
2. Real-world complexity
3. In-game technology level
And as a fourth factor (4.), there's also the value of the building itself, ie the yields and benefits of having it. This is a necessary factor for the sake of the game.

All four of these factor should (I assume we all agree) have some sort of positive relationship with building cost. As 1., 2., 3., or 4. increases, production cost increases.

It seems like Thunderbrd wants 1., 2., and 3. to all be involved, at least some combination of.

Production as a measure of material (1) has the strongest precedent in vanilla civ, imo. Unspent production is lumber, metal and stone. After it's been spent, I interpret it as infrastructure. When building a university, part of the cost is setting up the campus.

But vanilla civ also has examples of (2), where the cost of the infrastructure cannot entirely explain the game's production cost, but C2C introduces much more, especially with Paleolithic-era 'gathering' buildings. Noraid2 calls it 'complexity', but I interpret it as social organization. It's the time and effort required to train and mobilize the work force. With relation to technology, I interpret this as the implementation of the theory, after the theory has been 'researched'.

There's no real-world explanation for why better technology should increase its cost, assuming the other two factors remain constant, so this is purely a game mechanic. But we can consider the implications of the game mechanics:
  • I see no way to differentiate 1. and 2. without re-inventing the game, so the C2C team + community will need to agree on some way to average them.
  • If a building has low 1., high 3., and reasonable 4., and we decide its final production cost will be high, then the explanation for its cost is in the complexity (2). We have decided that this building takes longer to build because it's more complex; the building's particular yields (4.) are the reward for an investment of hammers.
  • If a building has low 1., high 3., and reasonable 4., and we decide its final production cost will be low, then the explanation is in the technology (3). We have decided that, once a society knows how, the building is actually very easy to set up and implement. The investment is the beakers; the yields (4.) are a reward for being technologically advanced.
First you need to decide what relationship 1. will have with 2. Then, you must decide the relationship between that (the result of 1. and 2.) and 3. Does scientific discovery sometimes find more efficient ways to do what once would have taken longer? Or does increased technology always mean bigger, more complex projects? The final hammer-cost should be compared to 4., because this determines how 'good' a building is. These will be main-objective buildings. Right now, buildings like the forge and the stone tool workshop are very good, and I assume they've been designed this way to match their 'importance'. Some other buildings, however, I feel have an outsized benefit for their meager importance, such as the Bridal Shop and the Magic Shop.

You don't have to do it in this order; it all depends on which variable you want to hold constant. But once I understand the vision you're aiming for, I can give some feedback on which buildings feel like they have the wrong production cost.
 
And as a fourth factor (4.), there's also the value of the building itself, ie the yields and benefits of having it. This is a necessary factor for the sake of the game.
All in all, great post.

This is a strong point of consideration, particularly when in comparing the building to a peer building that opened up in the same tech column. I noticed this would need some consideration with some energy buildings in particular. I also noticed that it was kinda cool that the Elder Council was so expensive (which was an initial mistake on my part - costed based on the obsoleting tech rather than the prerequisite at first) because it really deserves to be more expensive due to its effect. Perhaps a forge, for example, or a bank, should also be adjusted for benefit. And some things I can see adjusting down due to minimal benefit as well.

Since we're listing (which is exactly the discussion I'm asking for here) other causes for buildings to be more or less expensive, how would we feel about including a measure of community enthusiasm for the building? People being willing to volunteer, for example, to pitch in to get that building built? Like a Tavern, or Pub, or even Temples, for example? And then are there buildings the government has to really push the people to be willing to build, like a City Council building perhaps?

If that's another valid factor then we have:
1. In-game technology level (forms the base amount)
2. Real-world material
3. Real-world complexity
4. Game benefit factor
5. Enthusiasm - sense of priority from the community

Being a game of expansion of all variables as things play out, CivIV game demands some tech based anchoring for balance and standards to be applied. We can rationalize that in numerous ways, some of which obviously overlap with the further 4 considerations. Tech plays a role in how well the building is built, and as time goes on, the familiarity with that construction project by society would make it tend to become less of an effort to construct than newer buildings on the cutting edge perhaps. Regardless of the rationale, there would still be some buildings that are obviously more costly than others.

One interesting example is in factories and storefronts that both open up at the same tech. Would a bike factory be cheaper or more expensive than a bike shop? Tech-wise they open at the same time but it seems funny that they would have the same cost. Just as an example.

I wonder if there are more factors one would need to consider than those listed so far though.
 
Here's an idea: The forge is a prerequisite for all the smelter buildings. What if the forge's price is increased a little, so that the smelters' costs can be decreased a little? And similar changes for all the other bonus buildings: hunter's camp for specified hunter's camps, fishing nets for bonus fish buildings, miner's camp for bonus resource mines...

One thing I've long disliked about C2C is how selecting production queues usually consists of applying the appropriate filter for what I need (gold, food, etc), then spamming Shift + Left-click. This way, it might feel more like "I have all these fruit resources; I should build a [generic] plantation so I can tap all those bonuses" and less like "eventually, I'll have the time to build all those plantations."

On the other hand, I can also agree with delaying the time it takes to access, say, iron wares, just because of the enormous military advantage.

Tech plays a role in how well the building is built, and as time goes on, the familiarity with that construction project by society would make it tend to become less of an effort to construct than newer buildings on the cutting edge perhaps

Interestingly, the modders at Civ5's Community Balance Patch have addressed this directly. Buildings unlocked in older eras have an 8% reduced cost for each era from the current. It helps newly built cities get on their feet. Don't know whether that's possible or wanted for C2C.
 
Interestingly, the modders at Civ5's Community Balance Patch have addressed this directly. Buildings unlocked in older eras have an 8% reduced cost for each era from the current. It helps newly built cities get on their feet. Don't know whether that's possible or wanted for C2C.
Well... it's already being addressed here by basing the construction cost on tech xgrid, right?

Here's an idea: The forge is a prerequisite for all the smelter buildings. What if the forge's price is increased a little, so that the smelters' costs can be decreased a little? And similar changes for all the other bonus buildings: hunter's camp for specified hunter's camps, fishing nets for bonus fish buildings, miner's camp for bonus resource mines...
You sure that it's not the other way around? That a forge requires having access to something that has been smelted that it can use? It's not a direct prerequisite but an indirect one through requiring one of many different types of metal ingots, which it takes a smelter to make. Plus, smelters should be a little heavy - they are large buildings which are really not necessary everywhere, just in the vicinity of the source of the ore. A very central and limited thing. Perhaps those are somehow factors that should be taken into account as well...

I also wonder if some categories as we have them should be categorically more or less costly. I could break up Metalworks into Smelters and Mines (probably should) and make Smelters as a rule more expensive because they are so unnecessary to be in all cities. Mines... are these company or operation administration or the mine itself? I say more the company or operation administration. An office/shop to support the mining operations in the local mines. In this case, it sounds like it could be a little moderate or cheap really in comparison to many other buildings.

So then we'd have:

1. In-game technology level (forms the base amount)
2. Real-world material
3. Real-world complexity
4. Game benefit factor
5. Enthusiasm - sense of priority from the community
6. Category - when 2,3,4,5 or other category specific consideration applies to every building in the category.
 
Do you really want to make it THAT complex? I thought your whole point was to bring in a system and get away from "random" numbers.
If you have to check every single building for those 6 or so parameters, then it will take forever. Do people want to have a Vaccine Lab build or not? Will they protest against a Particle Accelerator or happy to get one (this should also be based on Education Level then). Particle Accelerators are science buildings, so should one cost the same as a Chemical Lab if they came around the same time?
Are your people into football or basketball or baseball? Which of these will they volunteer to help with?
If you had Shamanism for 1000s of years in your city, then research Buddism, found it, switch to it and start building a Temple, will your people happily volunteer in building it or be against it as it is not their "native" religion. At which point they all truely converted to buddism and step in to help? Will there be a differnce in resistance against certain religions buildings from more peaceful religions like Buddism compared to more "we-are-the-only-true-religion" ones like Islam or Christianity? How do Civis affect building times? If you run Monarchy within a cruel system, will there be more resistence against the Throne Room than under a friendly regime?
Does war affect the speed of building buildings like a Wall, Traps, a Cannonforge?

These are all rethorical of course, to show how much of a can of worms you can open up here. I'd rather have a nice "easy to follow" system that works ingame than a hyper realistic one were a Basketball Cort is only cheaper than a "Soccer" Stadium because the fieldsize is a bit smaller...
 
I haven't yet, but it should all just be according to ratios from there right? Still, testing is necessary obviously but anything close to 100 would've been really upsetting for any gamespeed so it couldn't hurt to offer a little temporary improvement.

Was not one of the reasons for this re-costing project to make building things a bit more "expensive" overall?

And by setting all Eras iConstruction to 50%, which affects every GS, you have basically brought all the costs back down to Pre Re-Costing values/levels. For what purpose? To make game play the same as Before the Re-Costing. Why?

I just have not had the time to get into serious testing. Too many other RL things that need done. And I also need a break from the constant testing of GSs and other Balance issues. Pit claims he plays more games and more turns than I do with his UEM. He has No Idea what he's talking about on time spent In Game Play. Nor does any other modder we have on this team. I'm just a bit tired right now.
 
Do you really want to make it THAT complex? I thought your whole point was to bring in a system and get away from "random" numbers.
If you have to check every single building for those 6 or so parameters, then it will take forever. Do people want to have a Vaccine Lab build or not? Will they protest against a Particle Accelerator or happy to get one (this should also be based on Education Level then). Particle Accelerators are science buildings, so should one cost the same as a Chemical Lab if they came around the same time?
Are your people into football or basketball or baseball? Which of these will they volunteer to help with?
If you had Shamanism for 1000s of years in your city, then research Buddism, found it, switch to it and start building a Temple, will your people happily volunteer in building it or be against it as it is not their "native" religion. At which point they all truely converted to buddism and step in to help? Will there be a differnce in resistance against certain religions buildings from more peaceful religions like Buddism compared to more "we-are-the-only-true-religion" ones like Islam or Christianity? How do Civis affect building times? If you run Monarchy within a cruel system, will there be more resistence against the Throne Room than under a friendly regime?
Does war affect the speed of building buildings like a Wall, Traps, a Cannonforge?

These are all rethorical of course, to show how much of a can of worms you can open up here. I'd rather have a nice "easy to follow" system that works ingame than a hyper realistic one were a Basketball Cort is only cheaper than a "Soccer" Stadium because the fieldsize is a bit smaller...
I completely see your point. The sense of things from a player perspective is the main thing I'm considering for a phase II adjustment project.

But for simplicity's sake, I'm thinking I'd like to keep such adjustments to the really glaringly obvious ones. Castles, for example. There are others. I'm thinking of a pretty quick scan through the list to see where there are big examples of these factors needing to be taken into consideration. The majority should be pretty much straight at base perhaps.

Also, some of this may be much easier done through a spreadsheet that automatically tallies the new cost, much like the unit sheet.

Was not one of the reasons for this re-costing project to make building things a bit more "expensive" overall?
Not really. It was to smooth out the arc of increase. The old base chart things were based on was far too penalizing in the late game and far too cheap in midgame. So it wasn't to make all eras have their buildings cost more. Some needed more others needed less. There were also lumpy spots in the old system where sometimes the costs were the same as the previous line - typos effecting the whole game system.

One big purpose of this was to establish a guideline by which costs would be assigned for new buildings as well. To move away from arbitration and chaos being the rule. Some buildings would cost 3 rounds while most were costing 1 while that building offered little reason not to be as the others or less... at least if that is happening now we can point to a cause - that the building was unlocked by tech level later than those others its being compared to.

And by setting all Eras iConstruction to 50%, which affects every GS, you have basically brought all the costs back down to Pre Re-Costing values/levels. For what purpose? To make game play the same as Before the Re-Costing. Why?
Not at all. Many buildings are vastly different. 6-7 rounds to get a stick gatherer on snail is nothing like the 1 round building we had before.

Furthermore, we may find that we can enhance the arc by adding another 10 to each era's iConstruction or something. The goal is to make these kinds of adjustments smoothly affect the era and not be disruptive to gameplay.

I just have not had the time to get into serious testing. Too many other RL things that need done. And I also need a break from the constant testing of GSs and other Balance issues. Pit claims he plays more games and more turns than I do with his UEM. He has No Idea what he's talking about on time spent In Game Play. Nor does any other modder we have on this team. I'm just a bit tired right now.
No problem. I'm moving on with base recosting and establishing initial spreadsheeting on buildings into other documents; the National Wonders is what I'm working on now. Once those in the core and the world wonders in the core are completed, testing will be all the more effective for global manipulations to dial things in properly.
 
I completely see your point. The sense of things from a player perspective is the main thing I'm considering for a phase II adjustment project.

Ok good!
Then, in order to get a better feel for the cost appropiate for buildings, would it be worthwhile to get the :hammers: a city generates every 5 turns?
I would do this if it's useful, but I can do so only starting in september as I'm on vacation from next monday on.
 
would it be worthwhile to get the :hammers: a city generates every 5 turns?
It might be interesting to take numerous samples and try to define a range. Rather large variations can take place there of course.
 
Ok sounds fun! As a scientist, I like to generate huge amount of data by doing a repetetive task :p
Very curious how far this project will have developed when I come back from my vacation.
Also, if there is a list of options that you consider "standard", or that you are most interested in, name it and I'll do it.
Same goes for speed, map size, difficulty, mapgenerator etc.
 
I suppose we just need a number of checks for comparison. If you feel that an option, speed, map size, difficulty, mapgenerator etc... could create a variation that puts us into a polarization, then scientific method would suggest we establish a standard control group as the basis for all comparisons and then we test individual comparisons. This is likely only really possible through setting things up via scenario manipulation. Perhaps, then map generator would never produce a controlled environment enough but we COULD vary the experience in a controlled manner with polarized city environment tests. There would even be numerous base control groups for different eras and expectable base populations and so on.

You're experienced in this game enough to work on controlled variation tests from there I"m sure :)
 
I'm ok with doing ONE testgame to the endgame with writing down :hammers: in each city each turn, but multiple? :crazyeye:
I think even one game gives us a good idea on how :hammers: progress through the game. Especially if I write it down for several cities seperately it should take map variation into account. I'm also thinking about seperating :hammers: into base :hammers: and the percentage modifier.
 
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