Building up a huge empire relatively early on then catching up (Emperor)

[atreas]

Rest assured that I played all default settings, and Mansa Musa did have longbowmen etc. at a bit over 500 AD and was growing rapidly by warring against Monty. If you remember I virtually took out Qin around 980 AD and you'll see I mentioned in the original post that Qin did have longbowmen sometime before then, but my numbers were too great for him.

As for Peter, duh. I took him out first.

As for Isabella, I took her out at 720 AD, and by that time she was too crippled to research well.

So I frankly don't see what you find unusual about the AI's research rate at this game. I'm sure Victoria (on the other continent) had longbowmen at >500AD as well.

Standard continents, not small. This ain't exactly small pangaea we're talking about.

First thing to avoid further misunderstandings: I completely agree with your strategy (I use the same strategy myself) but I was surprised by the relatively (from my experiences) slow tech research rate from your opponents. Then I finally realised the reason.

I have seen many times in these forums the terms "standard settings" - that say many things and nothing. In fact, there is a big difference between the "standard" (forgive me that I call "small" by habit) and the Large/Huge maps, but only in respect to the number of AI players. You are right that with the "standard" settings the research rate you showed is quite normal.

But it must be noted that this happens mainly because in the "standard" settings civs are quite close to each other - so usually no chance to build "alone" more than 5-6 cities at most. I can confirm from experience that in this case your strategy is perfectly viable exactly as described: 18 cities is pretty normal to handle, and can assure you victory at the latter phases (perhaps after a war against Mansa plus Corporation and later State Property).

The only case where there is a big difference is with the Large maps with few civs (5-6). In this case each civ usually builds MANY cities (9-10 minimum) and also there is bigger distance between the civs. So you cant afford to make two or three early wars (30-35 cities so early would be more than you could handle) but should again contain yourself to something around 18-20 cities. The extra distance also creates some difficulties in the attacks.

You should also be careful that, in the "empty" maps with the many cities, each civ discovers faster and also there are more village huts "to take". That means, by 500 AD it isn't uncommon to see some musketmen around (so no more axemen and swordmen chances). But with the necessary corrections, I strongly believe this method of play is viable in ALL kinds of maps (except, of course, Archipelago with 1 player in each island - very difficult to implement there). So, you can vote me also in the category of "swordmen expansionists and later builders".

 

[goraemon]

I can confirm from experience that in this case your strategy is perfectly viable exactly as described: 18 cities is pretty normal to handle, and can assure you victory at the latter phases (perhaps after a war against Mansa plus Corporation and later State Property).

Well, I never got to State Property, because:



Truth be told, I was sloppy and careless during the war against Mansa because I kind of got bored (but I like to finish games I started), and started taking some foolish chances etc. so it wasn't very efficient and took longer than it would've otherwise. Still, it was in the bag from the start.

I've never played a map larger than standard OR smaller than standard in my SP games. I'm certain there are nuances that must be taken into account at huge maps, but my computer has enough trouble already with standard size so I won't be going beyond that for a while.

alexti2: I've heard only a few times that epic is generally easier than normal speed. All other games I play on emperor are on normal speed in addition to all default options, and from my few experiences at epic on monarch I personally didn't find this to be the case. Then again, maybe this is because I have not been employing a warlike strategy in a lot of my games. The other emperor wins I have so far, which include another military domination victory, were on normal speed+continents+standard and they were quite doable if sufficiently challenging - certainly not any more or less challenging than this epic win imo.

considerations that make you play better on Deity will improve your Emperor game as well.

As an analogy, one could also say that considerations that make you play better on Deity will improve your Noble game as well, and this would be true. Doesn't mean that deity discussions are warranted for Noble game threads though. That said, generally as you move up the difficulty chain, your options become more limited and stringent. For me emperor is far from a cakewalk but I find that I can still utilize a number of different strategies to pull out the win. For now I enjoy that balance and I plan to stay at this level for some time.

 

[alexti2]

alexti2: I've heard only a few times that epic is generally easier than normal speed. All other games I play on emperor are on normal speed in addition to all default options, and from my few experiences at epic on monarch I personally didn't find this to be the case. Then again, maybe this is because I have not been employing a warlike strategy in a lot of my games.

That's exactly the reason. If you play peacefully, you don't benefit from epic speed. The benefits from the epic speed are more apparent on harder levels, because there it's typically a race: can you conquer AI before it builds spaceship or not? Epic speed effectively make units to move and heal faster, and have more attacks in relation to research and build speeds, which obviously allows to take over more cities per "unit of research". The same applies to any difficulty level, but there you don't really need to push that hard, because with AI getting no or little bonuses you can just get slightly bigger empire and then get spaceship win.

 

[Wodan]

Yep, I just started a topic last weekend about this. I have been finding on Epic and even more so on Marathon that a warlike strategy really favors humans over the AIs.

The reason is that the AI doesn't know how to really preserve its units. When a war starts, the AI will send in a stack or two. All you have to do is wipe these out. It takes so long to build new units that the AI never recovers.

Just last night (on Marathon), I'm going for either Dip or Domination, around 1800. I need some more territory for either victory, so I declared war on Asoka. Despite me being about 12-15 Techs ahead of him (I had modern armor and he had grenadiers and cav) he sent in two big stacks.

I think he managed to raze one farm.

Wodan

 

[goraemon]

Maybe I'll find out more about that because this is only my 2nd of 3rd epic game, others are all normal speed. I didn't feel that my emperor military victories on normal were noticeably harder, although there was obviously some luck and opportunism involved.

 

[akots]

A very nice article which pretty much summarizes the strategy of "common sense".

I am not a fan of large/huge maps and have won on Deity consistently only with Preatorians. But on Immortal level, normal speed, Pangea, this is exactly the case. Just grab as much as you can (10-12 cities by 500AD might be OK) without going deep into negative income. Then, chop city improvements and build up your land. Make sure all resources are connected and the game is in the bag just because you have more land than any AI separately and hence more production and income.

Actually, imho, Civ4 is a rather easy game, it is easier than Civ3. There is little need to make simple things comlicated. Of course, there is some issue of balance while expanding, you must know approximately how many units you would need to take out an AI and how many cities you can afford. But it is no magic and pretty easy after a couple of game.

 

[East St Trader]

I disagree.

I am about to lose my current game from about the situation discussed in this thread. I got a bunch of good early cities down and when Isabella injudiciously declared on me - pitting her archers against my axemen - I got several more. All are well sited and I now command an enviable range of resources.

But I just missed all the early religions and have not done well enough with improving my land.

I can avoid a strike by sratching up every coin going but it will be a month of Sundays before I can get my infrastructure sorted and somewhere along the way the leaner, fitter A1 factions will carve me up. Or they will ignore me and tech trade among themselves to whatever victory they choose.

No doubt had I judged the number of axemen needed better or put down a two or three less cities I might have had enough workers doing enough improvements to have a chance. But I don't have your crystal ball. I did not know how tough an opponent Isabella was going to be. So maybe I didn't do well enough with scoutig either. Had I been able to see more than the boundaries of her empire I would have been better fixed to achieve a better balance.

And I could go on. I am two to three weeks into the game but that is well enough experience to know that a formula involving some number of axemen and some number of cities is just not going to hack it.

 

[goraemon]

I disagree.

I am about to lose my current game from about the situation discussed in this thread. I got a bunch of good early cities down and when Isabella injudiciously declared on me - pitting her archers against my axemen - I got several more. All are well sited and I now command an enviable range of resources.

But I just missed all the early religions and have not done well enough with improving my land.

I can avoid a strike by sratching up every coin going but it will be a month of Sundays before I can get my infrastructure sorted and somewhere along the way the leaner, fitter A1 factions will carve me up. Or they will ignore me and tech trade among themselves to whatever victory they choose.
......
And I could go on. I am two to three weeks into the game but that is well enough experience to know that a formula involving some number of axemen and some number of cities is just not going to hack it.

I suggest you (and anyone else curious) try out this savegame.

EDIT: Moved to This Thread

 

[Adonias]

I guess that before you start your rapid expansion with conquering it is very important to have enough workers and either curency (market) or better: code of laws (courthouse). The market is nice if the cities you captured are big and produce a lot of gold, the courthouse is better for smaller cities, just to get your maintenance down. I generally never start a was before having a code of laws.


(Except of course when playing inca... then I take out one or two civs right at the start with qui's, but not keeping the cities... of course, then barbarians have room to spawn their cities... oh well.. you could go on and on about it)

 

[goraemon]

Adonias: you're correct, currency and/or courthouses are a big help for early rapid expansion. In the above game, though, as of 75 BC, I have neither. Needless to say I don't have pyramids either. Considering that you will need to keep your science at 0% for a while and still lose boatloads of money, it's a more difficult challenge this way, but if you can survive it and thrive, it'll be all the more testament to the viability of rapid expansion.

 

[Oggums]

The epic game speed is really what makes this viable, imo.

With a normal speed game, you'd need more units to conquer your continent (due to military buildup the AI does in war-time, which is much faster on normal speed) and you'd also fall much further behind in techs. By the time you get your infrastructure in order, the other continent is building it's spaceship.

It's the simple fact that the AI can't use it's units as well as the player, so the longer it takes the AI to build units, the greater the advantage the player has. Try Marathon an you can really see the difference with a heavy war strategy.

 

[goraemon]

Oggums: aside from the fact that I have used this strategy successfully on normal emperor before, this is why I started another normal game just a few posts back and put up the savegame. Try it, this challenge is open to anybody.

 

[The Lardossen]

I guess that before you start your rapid expansion with conquering it is very important to have enough workers and either curency (market) or better: code of laws (courthouse). The market is nice if the cities you captured are big and produce a lot of gold, the courthouse is better for smaller cities, just to get your maintenance down. I generally never start a was before having a code of laws.


(Except of course when playing inca... then I take out one or two civs right at the start with qui's, but not keeping the cities... of course, then barbarians have room to spawn their cities... oh well.. you could go on and on about it)

I was halfway through my blitzkrieg, after almost finishing the Greeks and at war with the Americans when I read the part marked bold. I realized Adonias was right, and I switched inmediately to Currency (from I think Metal Working) and to Code of Laws after that, having pillaged just enough money from the three American cities to do that in time.

I plummeted into the red, even having STRIKE for two turns, but then the cottages, markets and courthouses started kicking in I've been building from the moment I signed peace with America and got the techs.

After that the Chinese started warring, already able to build War Elephants, Knights and Chu-Ko-whatevers, and since I wasn't doing war-only, I asked for Mansa's help. Next time I won't, he took a few cities, and became the second largest for the rest of the game.

After finishing the Chinese together with Mali, I started to gain my tech momentum. When I somewhat passed the AI's in tech, I stopped trading techs, because most techs I research are *musts* to not lose or win the game, techs for Space Race, or the UN.

Finished UN first, got one essential tech for SS first, and won.

Had to go on war with Japan (other island) and ask Mali to join (who was always very willing to oblige all through the game, strangely. Specific for this leader?) to get both Japan and Mali distracted enough to not build the spaceship first but concentrate on building already doomed stacks of invading troops.

Actually, I hate spaceship wins, even diplomatic is better. But it seems the AI doesn't stand a chance otherwise.

Anyway, this was my first Emperor win, and after I've won a few games on that level, it's time to move up.

-----------------

Edit:

This game was with every setting default, except I didn't take a random leader but chose Asoka.

So normal, continents, etc.....

 

[OwenShadd2006]

What were your exact map specs guy who made this post? I heard something about a civ wiping out another, this never ****ing hapens in my games their all pathetic and cant do **** all.

 

[goraemon]

Owen: Like I said all standard options. Standard size, continents.

 

[OwenShadd2006]

How many civs?

 

[goraemon]

Owen: All standard options means 7 civs I thought. Anyways, 7.