Building Wonders - Change

[dsinsocal]

Is there an add-on that changes the way wonders are built? Specifically, instead of having a race to the *end* of construction (where the AI always beats you by one or two turns and you've wasted all that time for nothing), I'd rather see it changed to a race to the *start* of production.

Instead of seeing a notification that "An unknown civ has completed Stonehenge", I'd rather see, "An unknown Civ has started construction on Stonehenge", and then having that building removed as an option.

There's nothing more frustrating than wiping out all of your forests and spending 34 turns waiting for a building to complete, only to have another civ complete it on turn 35 and having nothing to show for it. I understand the logic of not allowing the same wonder to be built twice, but logically speaking it's impossible to have the same wonder *being built simultaneously* too.

In the interest of realism, the race should be to the start of construction, not the end of it. Not sure if it's even possible, but if an add-on like that exists please let me know.

 

[dsinsocal]

I keep trying to play the game again every 6 months or so -- because the concept of the game *sounds* fun -- but I always find that, between the stupid barbarian mechanics and the way the AI cheats about wonders, I always end up quitting the game within 50-100 turns out of frustration.

 

[Sostratus]

If you feel its overly punitive to simply lose a wonder race (always frustrating - especially when you lose something petra to an AI that builds it in a one tile desert!) you could always change the recovered production parameter to 1. Currently it is set to 50% salvage ratio. Not quite the same, but at least you don't lose anything and it's a very simple change to make.

 

[dsinsocal]

If you feel its overly punitive to simply lose a wonder race (always frustrating - especially when you lose something petra to an AI that builds it in a one tile desert!) you could always change the recovered production parameter to 1. Currently it is set to 50% salvage ratio. Not quite the same, but at least you don't lose anything and it's a very simple change to make.

I actually hate losing the time more than the hammers. Having 30-40 turns of downtime is disastrous.

 

[Gedemon]

Instead of seeing a notification that "An unknown civ has completed Stonehenge", I'd rather see, "An unknown Civ has started construction on Stonehenge", and then having that building removed as an option.

Interesting.

But you'd also need a mechanism to prevent a player to "reserve" a wonder, for example once started you shouldn't be able to switch production (and yield priorities) until it's completed, and it shouldn't be possible to start one in a city that would take too many turns to complete it.

 

[Lord Lakely]

You could make Wonders more fluid. For example, you initiate a wonder, it works like a project (example: "Build A Grand Tomb For Our Emperor" or "Built A Holiest of Holies For Our Messiah") and what wonder it turns into depends on the civ that built it.

For example, the "Free Great Prophet wonder" turns into Stonehenge if completed by a European Civ, but if India completes it becomes a large Buddha statue, if a middle-eastern civ completes it becomes the Temple of Solomon, if a mesoamerican civ completes it, it will appear on the map as the Nazca lines, etc. Whoever completes the project first, gets the advantage.

You could also recycle wonders that way. The aforementioned Nazca Line/Stonehenge/Buddha Statue/Solomon Temple combo could also provide a different bonus when completed (say "Doubled Holy Site Adjacency"), allowing the Civs that failed to complete the "Free GP" project they've initiated to repurpose it into another until all projects tied to that Wonder cluster have been completed.

 

[dsinsocal]

Interesting.

But you'd also need a mechanism to prevent a player to "reserve" a wonder, for example once started you shouldn't be able to switch production (and yield priorities) until it's completed, and it shouldn't be possible to start one in a city that would take too many turns to complete it.

For sure. Under that scenario, I figured once you begin construction you would be locked into it until complete.

Not sure if limiting the number of turns required to complete the building would be necessary. I wouldn't be against it, personally, because anyone who locked up production in their city for more than 50 turns is probably not using the time wisely, IMO.

I've seen your mods before... is that something that is possible to do?

 

[killmeplease]

maybe there should be a requirement of being able to build the wonder in 30 turns?

i can make this mod, the only problem is locking production but maybe if you've switched to something else other players should be allowed to start building the wonder (and in this case you cant get back to it)

 

[dsinsocal]

maybe there should be a requirement of being able to build the wonder in 30 turns?

i can make this mod, the only problem is locking production but maybe if you've switched to something else other players should be allowed to start building the wonder (and in this case you cant get back to it)

Ya, either require a finish-what-you-start policy, or if you do decide to cease production on a great building (ie. drop it down in your queue) the building becomes available for someone to pick up again -- and one of the AI civs certainly would -- so you wouldn't want to stop production on it anyway.

I would seriously love, love, love such a mod. I find the great building thing to be the most frustrating part of the game, and the biggest reason I lose interest in a game and start over.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To interject here. . .

There are historical 'Wonders' that took centuries to build: several cathedrals in Europe, for instance, and China's Great Wall that was started around 200 BCE and parts were still under construction over 1500 years later.

In other words, an artificial limit on construction time isn't really realistic.

On the other hand, neither is the idea that virtually any Civilization with the right Terrain can build virtually any Wonder.

My personal preference for a solution would be to make the Requirements to build a Wonder, in terrain, Civic/Tech, Religion, or whatever much more stringent. After all, there is a reason each World Wonder was only built Once.

To take Stonehenge as an example Wonder - because in virtually every game I've played it seems to be one of the most-competed-for Wonders - it is actually only 'unique' because of its size: there are Stone Circles all over northern Europe and as far south as southern Egypt. But instead of just making the availability of Stone and the Tech Astrology a requirement, Why was it built? Religion, is the usual answer today (although some archeologists suggest it may have been a calendar with agricultural significance as much as religious). So, to build Stonehenge you need not only access to Stone, but also you have to have a Pantheon Belief to start it - or perhaps a specific Pantheon Belief, like Stone Circles (which is pretty d**n obvious, but . . .)

Also, as discussed here already, there are a lot of Wonders that essentially serve the same purpose: Egyptian Pyramids were all Tombs for Rulers. So was the Mausoleum (Halicarnasus), and the Terracotta Army. And the Chinese and Egyptian versions of Ruler Tombs included massive amounts of Funerary Goods which added to the Wonderfulness of the Wonders. In every case, then, perhaps you should need both a certain Belief and a certain Civic or Government. After all, if you don't feel particularly worshipful about your ruler, it's going to take some doing for him to get 1000s of you to work for years on his Tomb . . .

Basically, jack up the requirements and make them very specific, and the possibilities for Competing for Wonders drops dramatically - and many will not get built at all in the average game for lack of one requirement or the other.

Then, make a number of Wonders semi-interchangeable, like the 'Ruler Tomb' Wonders, and finally, most of the Ancient/Classical/Medieval Wonders should probably lose much of their effect later in the game. Does anyone seriously think The Colossus, if it still existed, would still have any effect on Trade Routes or Great Admirals?

This is not to Downgrade old Wonders, but to Regrade them: the Taj Mahal, Stonehenge, the Pyramids all remain Major Tourist attractions, and in the GS context, having several World Wonders in your Civ should get you some Favor Points late in the game: England may be a shadow of its former Self, but having Stonehenge and the Tourist sites in London (represented by Big Ben, in my perception) still gives it a cache of Past Glory and lots of visitors. . .

 

[killmeplease]

too narrow restrictions for wonders would make it hard for the AI to build them
while the human player will have little problem fulfilling the conditions

Ya, either require a finish-what-you-start policy, or if you do decide to cease production on a great building (ie. drop it down in your queue) the building becomes available for someone to pick up again -- and one of the AI civs certainly would -- so you wouldn't want to stop production on it anyway.

I would seriously love, love, love such a mod. I find the great building thing to be the most frustrating part of the game, and the biggest reason I lose interest in a game and start over.

and here it is:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1630413539

 

[dsinsocal]

I actually hate losing the time more than the hammers. Having 30-40 turns of downtime is disastrous.

....I also hate the suspension of logic that 98% of a great building suddenly vanishes into thin air because

too narrow restrictions for wonders would make it hard for the AI to build them
while the human player will have little problem fulfilling the conditions


and here it is:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1630413539

Praise be to Killmeplease!

I will happily guinea-pig this mod and let you know if anything goes awry. Thanks for the work.

 

[dsinsocal]

To interject here. . .

There are historical 'Wonders' that took centuries to build: several cathedrals in Europe, for instance, and China's Great Wall that was started around 200 BCE and parts were still under construction over 1500 years later.

In other words, an artificial limit on construction time isn't really realistic.

On the other hand, neither is the idea that virtually any Civilization with the right Terrain can build virtually any Wonder.

My personal preference for a solution would be to make the Requirements to build a Wonder, in terrain, Civic/Tech, Religion, or whatever much more stringent. After all, there is a reason each World Wonder was only built Once.

To take Stonehenge as an example Wonder - because in virtually every game I've played it seems to be one of the most-competed-for Wonders - it is actually only 'unique' because of its size: there are Stone Circles all over northern Europe and as far south as southern Egypt. But instead of just making the availability of Stone and the Tech Astrology a requirement, Why was it built? Religion, is the usual answer today (although some archeologists suggest it may have been a calendar with agricultural significance as much as religious). So, to build Stonehenge you need not only access to Stone, but also you have to have a Pantheon Belief to start it - or perhaps a specific Pantheon Belief, like Stone Circles (which is pretty d**n obvious, but . . .)

Also, as discussed here already, there are a lot of Wonders that essentially serve the same purpose: Egyptian Pyramids were all Tombs for Rulers. So was the Mausoleum (Halicarnasus), and the Terracotta Army. And the Chinese and Egyptian versions of Ruler Tombs included massive amounts of Funerary Goods which added to the Wonderfulness of the Wonders. In every case, then, perhaps you should need both a certain Belief and a certain Civic or Government. After all, if you don't feel particularly worshipful about your ruler, it's going to take some doing for him to get 1000s of you to work for years on his Tomb . . .

Basically, jack up the requirements and make them very specific, and the possibilities for Competing for Wonders drops dramatically - and many will not get built at all in the average game for lack of one requirement or the other.

Then, make a number of Wonders semi-interchangeable, like the 'Ruler Tomb' Wonders, and finally, most of the Ancient/Classical/Medieval Wonders should probably lose much of their effect later in the game. Does anyone seriously think The Colossus, if it still existed, would still have any effect on Trade Routes or Great Admirals?

This is not to Downgrade old Wonders, but to Regrade them: the Taj Mahal, Stonehenge, the Pyramids all remain Major Tourist attractions, and in the GS context, having several World Wonders in your Civ should get you some Favor Points late in the game: England may be a shadow of its former Self, but having Stonehenge and the Tourist sites in London (represented by Big Ben, in my perception) still gives it a cache of Past Glory and lots of visitors. . .

Lots of great ideas and common sense there. I wouldn't be against more stringent requirements either. I still think, however, that there should be a lockout function where a GB can only be constructed by one CIV, no matter how many additional requirements you impose. It's not like France and England were both racing to finish Stonehenge and when England finished the French version crumbled to dust and blew away in the wind.

 

[dsinsocal]

too narrow restrictions for wonders would make it hard for the AI to build them
while the human player will have little problem fulfilling the conditions


and here it is:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1630413539

Is there a notification when a civ begins construction on a GB (as opposed to when he finishes it)? That way, if you're following a civic path or researching a tech in order to unlock a great building you'll know if it's already out of play or not.

If no such notification exists in this mod, would it be problematic to add it?

 

[killmeplease]

Is there a notification when a civ begins construction on a GB (as opposed to when he finishes it)? That way, if you're following a civic path or researching a tech in order to unlock a great building you'll know if it's already out of play or not.

If no such notification exists in this mod, would it be problematic to add it?

no notification so far
i think it wont be hard to make
maybe it should be given only if you are researching the wonder's technology/civic at the moment?

 

[dsinsocal]

too narrow restrictions for wonders would make it hard for the AI to build them
while the human player will have little problem fulfilling the conditions


and here it is:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1630413539

Do you want feedback here, or on the steam comments tab? I started a new game with this mod and cannot get the city production screen to even open.

Additional Mods:
Dynamic Diplomacy
Good Goody Huts
Production Queue (this might be the issue)
Quick Start
Show Diplomatic Deals v1.06
Starting Scout

 

[dsinsocal]

Yep. I disabled the Production Queue mod and things seem to be working now.

 

[killmeplease]

Do you want feedback here, or on the steam comments tab? I started a new game with this mod and cannot get the city production screen to even open.

Additional Mods:
Dynamic Diplomacy
Good Goody Huts
Production Queue (this might be the issue)
Quick Start
Show Diplomatic Deals v1.06
Starting Scout


View attachment 515467

i think it would be better to post feedback on steam as this is an ideas&suggestions forum

 

[dsinsocal]

Sounds good. I'll post there.

 

[killmeplease]

technically there are buildings which are added to cities to block the construction of certain wonders