Bye Bye to Oracle

[Bureaucracy]

I saw an older thread a while back about Oracle being too hard to get in BtS at the higher levels. I have to agree. I think I can PUSH IT to possibly grab it most times on Immortal, if however I sacrifice just about everything else. And then what?

Grabbing it this early, not only sacrifices everything else, but means any tech you do grab will be much lower on the tree, and thus a much cheaper tech, which greatly deprecates the value of creating the wonder.

I guess you can't really win with this one. The AI definitely has made it a priority now, and human players really won't be getting much use out of this wonder.

 

[axident]

I saw an older thread a while back about Oracle being too hard to get in BtS at the higher levels. I have to agree. I think I can PUSH IT to possibly grab it most times on Immortal, if however I sacrifice just about everything else. And then what?

Grabbing it this early, not only sacrifices everything else, but means any tech you do grab will be much lower on the tree, and thus a much cheaper tech, which greatly deprecates the value of creating the wonder.

I guess you can't really win with this one. The AI definitely has made it a priority now, and human players really won't be getting much use out of this wonder.

On anything higher than Monarch, I skip it and hate how you can't even really capture it. Oh well. In other news, I've discovered that an uber-early axe rush still works miracles on Emperor, and that if you get the GW early you can also catch up by stealing massive amounts of tech from some civ that you have no intention of actually warring with for the next several dozen turns.

 

[Phrederick]

I've never really prioritized the Oracle unless I'm already going up the religion branch, because the opportunity cost is just too high: I'd rather spend those beakers and hammers on military or a land grab. If it was easier to get, then perhaps, but even in previous versions of Civ4 it rarely seemed worth going for.

However, if you do go for it, Metal Casting just requires fishing/agriculture, roads, and pottery. That's pretty easy to research while building it, and gives you perhaps the most expensive tech of that era.

 

[Sjaramei]

I've been able to build the Oracle very late a few times, it seems random when the AI decides to build it. (they can go insane and get it in 1800 BC's and stuff)

The new AI is just... unpredictable. I got a game where no one built the Pyramids before 800 AD. (i was kinda surprised seeing that i could build it then, but i guess thats what i get for only playing with the bad boys and not the builders )

So yes the game is harder now, so you can't do a "cookie-cutter" opening every game anymore, you gotta play the cards you are dealt

Consider using it for Alphabet instead of the usual CoL etc, some of the AI's tech insane at high levels and can make perfect trade buddies

 

[FrancisMarion]

I'm not sure I like how the AI values various wonders e.g. Temple of Artemis is basically impossible to get at emperor, but I haven't missed Pyramids once even without stone.

 

[Carnage04]

I've been able to build the Oracle very late a few times, it seems random when the AI decides to build it. (they can go insane and get it in 1800 BC's and stuff)

The new AI is just... unpredictable. I got a game where no one built the Pyramids before 800 AD. (i was kinda surprised seeing that i could build it then, but i guess thats what i get for only playing with the bad boys and not the builders )

So yes the game is harder now, so you can't do a "cookie-cutter" opening every game anymore, you gotta play the cards you are dealt

Consider using it for Alphabet instead of the usual CoL etc, some of the AI's tech insane at high levels and can make perfect trade buddies

I've found that if I see a wonder like the Great Wall lingering much later than it should be and try to build it, four or five turns in it gets taken out from under me. The AI leaves it half built to taunt me or something.

One Wonder that I have been building lately in SE games that I play without a Philosophical leader is the Parthenon. It's been hanging on consistently past 1000 AD in a lot of my games. I never prioritize it as if I am Researching Aesthetics, Literature is next and I will be using resources for the Great Library. If I can get it later though, I like it. It isn't really necessary, but it keeps those GP coming in the later eras.

 

[I tech faster]

I started a few games on normal maps with emperor difficulty and always managed to get stonehedge and oracle. But the IA is always stealing me the great wall even when i get stones. I found that most of the IA's don't bother with wonders at the beginning, building military instead.

 

[obsolete]

Consider using it for Alphabet instead of the usual CoL etc, some of the AI's tech insane at high levels and can make perfect trade buddies.

Using Oracle for Alphabet should have been used in Vanilla/warlords, but I don't see much benefit in doing that with BtS. Certainly not after you have to beeline for it just to grab it.

As for ToA, it always has been a little rough to get, but I've grabbed it on Immortal/Deity in BtS during some of my small test games.

 

[slobberinbear]

I used to go for the Oracle in every game. In BtS, though, it's situational. I only go for it on Monarch + difficulty if:

* I start with Mysticism;
* I'm going for an early religion (and will take the religious techs anyway);
* I'm Industrious; and/or
* I have marble

Otherwise, I'd rather save my chop/pop rushes for settlers.

 

[obsolete]

In my game I started last night, I got oracle fine. I was not industrious, nor did I have stone. This caused me to then lose my race for the GW. Nothing I can do about that, if I go for the GW first, then the oracle is gone by the time you are ready for it.

As much as many people have told me I'm a fool for going for priests, I'd still rather go for a priest than for a great-spy. In that case, the GW can be dropped. Especially since it is suspected to be axed in the next release anyhow.

Excluding the use of civics, I'd rather take a GP over 2 spies.

Do you think I'm crazy?

 

[cheffster]

especially with solvers patch, in BTS, the AI will build early wonders extreamly fast. Im my current DIETY game.. I Was however able to get just about every wonder I wanted - with proper whipping, and timed chops it IS possible.

I managed to build, the great wall, the pyramids, the oracle, T of Artemis, the parthenon, Museum of Massallos (in another city from a GE) and angkor watt. This is with Inca so I had the industrial trait bonus, and I also had fast access to marble, but I didn't hook up the stone till later when I built the Watt. It's pretty ridiculous how fast the AI expands and builds wonders on Diety...

However.. I will admit I sort of cheated.. i reloaded this game several times early on and timed out my wonders sometimes exactly 1 turn before the AI built them.

I attached the save if anyone wants to see it.

And Obselete: I really agree with you 100% about the nested priests early on being MUCH more usefull then spies.. also wanted to say I'm a big fan of your walkthroughs, I really think I learned to win on emp+ after reading them I'm thinking of writing up a similar walkthrough on Immortal for BTS with the Germans (but i don't know if I can do it w/out cottages). I love your commentaries and agree 100% about lightbulbing being the most biggest waste, but I tend to gradualy shift from a SE to CE as game progresses past the renaissance.. anyways.

In order to benefit from the early EP bonus and steal techs, you need alphabet and theres also risk of getting caught and you cant make use of the spy untill you can perform the interrogate civ and build another spy to steal it.. its just not fast enough imo to make it better then having a GP inked in you capital.


About the oracle, on immortal and below I usually no probs chop-rushing it, I tech usually mining-broze-poly-preisthood, but on diety it basically takes playing a few "practice rounds" from 4000-2500BC to see what wonders are possible and what tech path you need to get them, but I dont feel guiltly on Diety doing this since the AI start with 2 settlers, 3 workers, 3 archers, and 2 scouts, and all the ancient techs.

 

[weimingshi]

It seems the more civs in game the less likely you will get oracle. with 18 civs on huge map, forget about oracle. In my deity game, I was aiming for oracle, i beelined to it without distraction ( cause I want that great prophet to pop apostolic palace). After I researched priesthood, I couldn't find oracle in building list, turns out AI built it before I even researched the tech, it was 2400bc or something, it got built before stonehenge.

Restarted the game, went for pyramid first, great light house second, artimise temple third to pop the great prophet, parthenon fourth, apostolic palace and so on.