Bye for now, Civ 6 - It was nice getting to know you

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Finally: a constructive suggestion: A hard cap for number of units per civ. This would avoid the carpet of doom problem, and also perhaps help with the fact that the game is too easy even at the hardest levels. Let's say that at the beginning of the game, with the chiefdom government and no special cards, the human player would be under a 10 unit cap. (6? 8?) This could be increased with more aggressive government types or with certain government cards, such that a warlike modern government might support 40 units (25? 30?), and a peaceful modern government support only 10, or even fewer. Also, the AI could get higher caps than the player at higher difficulties: at Prince, AI gets 10; at King: 12; and so on. I am not certain of the optimal numbers, but if everyone only had X units, each unit would become very important, and choosing the right balance would be paramount.

I would much prefer a "soft limit", where when you go above it unit maintenance or production will go up. This feels much less artificial, and will be better for gameplay. I wouldn't to reach a certain point and then suddenly not be able to build units:nono:
 
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I would much prefer a "soft limit", where when you go above it unit maintenance or production will go up. This feels much less artificial, and will be better for gameplay. I wouldn't to reach a certain point and then suddenly not be able to build units:nono:
Yeah that makes more sense. Could also have some military policy cards in that case which increase the limit and/or reduce the penalty for going past it
 
I still honestly find it unbelievable that some people actually like stacks of doom more than 1UPT. I mean yeah okay, the AI is more challenging like that, but that is literally only because the system is terrible. There is almost no strategy or tactics whatsoever involved with stacks. All you need to do is to have enough units and of the right type. It turns the whole combat part of Civ into a game solely consisting of macro, but no micro whatsoever.
That's a whole dimension lost.

Civ is a 4X strategy game. i.e. while I do appreciate the tactics that 1UPT introduced, it isn't consistent with the game anyway (arrows flying over an entire city anyone? While small bore guns of every kind have a shorter range?? lol). If you want tactics, play a different game. 4X includes enough stuff without that layer.

Having said that, the balance to your forces was actually something you had to make decisions on. In V units were so limited that your average army for taking a city consisted of a couple of melee units, a light ranged unit, a couple of heavy ranged units, and a cavalry unit guarding your rear or taking hits for the rest. The variations on that weren't significant. Whereas in IV you had far more choices on the balance of your forces, as units were way more common.

Defensively it was fun coming up with a good balance of what you'd have in your front line defences, and what you'd have in centralised spots to move quickly to wherever you got hit by a stack. You couldn't afford to keep too many units in each border city, so there was some great strategising over what you could keep there. Now that is a whole dimension lost!

And I don't agree at all that Civ VI lacks urgency; Civ V definitely did but here you have new decisions to make all the time even when you're at peace due to how district management and policy cards work. In fact I used to play Civ V on epic most of the time but I've resorted to standard more so in Civ VI just because relatively speaking Civ VI takes more time due to how many things you have to do all the time. Though I will agree that it feels a bit like you don't have to min/max everything perfectly in order to win, but that's more related to the AI's weakness than the gameplay design.

Agreed.
 
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"Criticizing is good as long as it's something I agree with, but if it isn't - it's not critique."

This is hilarious, do go on...
You didn't read his post very well. Critiquing of game systems is one thing, describing something that (argubably isn't) a game-breaking bug as a game-breaking bug is another. It isn't critique, either. It's shouting "THIS IS A FACT" and hoping people agree. It doesn't help the developers fix the problem(s).
 
Regarding the actual points you made, they are arguable and counterpoints cannot simply be dismissed with jibes. Yes, stacked units present a formidable challenge to poorly defended cities, no argument there. But there was never anything challenging about countering a stack of doom.

Incorrect. I suspect you never actually played with the so-called "stack of doom". There was, in fact, some challenge involved in "countering" a "stack of doom". A lot of the the primary strategy of a Deity-level player was to avoid and predict early war as much as possible, because war was costly and not preferable to peaceful expansion until the land ran out. It was not always even possible to defend against an enemy stack with the advantages the AI had in the early game, because they started out so far ahead.

As long as the player kept up with the AI in military techs and kept military units up to date, 2-3 units with city walls was usually enough to defend a city or enable it to hang on until reinforcements could arrive. Not really a deep strategy there, and i suppose a stack of doom is tactical in the sense that it was the tactic to city-bust within the confines of the game.

The merits and intricacies of stack-based combat were recently discussed at length in this thread. I don't feel like retreading the same territory, but suffice it to say, there's a lot of meat and depth to stack-based combat as it was implemented in IV. If you care to read why, the information is a few pages into that thread.

With the current version of the game, i see more complex movements with AI units. They are good at approaching cities, but instead of attacking full-throttle, each individual unit seems to have a bias for its own preservation and in that regard units appear to lack discipline in the face of battle. Barbarians on the other hand seem to be less concerned about their individual worth and do not retreat until a higher threshold of damage has occurred. So on the one hand i like seeing that the AI units aren't all kamikazes, but on the other hand clearly more tuning is needed, like maybe some sort of discipline-like meta-modifier where a value is placed on the importance of any given war (eg, war of expansion an importance of 4, a pillaging/nuisance war a 2, a war to keep another Civ from winning a 6, or whatever numbers work), and that value of 'fighting for the greater good' is then used to modify the self-preservation coding that seems to already be present. In the bigger picture though, i do think the AI can be praised, because it is moving in the right direction, which is to say it is moving away from stacks of doom. Clearly the AI is using 'thought' or else why would they retreat (again compare to barb attack behavior)?.

That's the thing, though. The AI doesn't "think". It has simply been coded to be more timid instead of suicidal. This is actually worse for it, since it has been given even more significant military advantages in VI as compared to V, in the form of a combat bonus and more starting units. It should be more aggressive, because it has a large advantage, therefore it can afford to lose some units, it doesn't need to retreat them every time you shoot them with your city. When people complained about the AI being suicidal in V, this wasn't what they wanted, they wanted more coordinated attacks (which have not emerged, as far as I can tell, the AI just wants to try and siege cities but then runs away when it takes damage--I'm sure you can see why this is not a good tactic). There's a good theory about why the AI behaves the way it does. Far be it from me to critique AI programming, but that's not how I would have approached it. Whatever the reason, the AI has certainly changed a lot from V, for the worse.
 
That thread (that has also been posted in this subforum, and argued against), is not a theory in of itself. It's a collection of singular observations divorced from map seed values, playstyles, player choices and generally anything that an analyst could use to improve the situation (barring the obvious ones like "look into aerial AI combat").

This thread seems to be merging into that one, instead of sticking to a different (albeit overlapping) set of concerns.

And don't get me started on stacks. I'll just point to the first reply in that thread, coincidentally by yours truly.
 
"Criticizing is good as long as it's something I agree with, but if it isn't - it's not critique."

This is hilarious, do go on...

I just think there needs to be pushback against all the 'game-break' yellers. Reading through the forum topic list is a big ol stack of doom of game breaks. Things get said and then repeated, the repetitions amplify the previous repetitions which produces the common inarguable knowledge that the game is broken. It's a downward spiral for morale, and crashing the morale of fans of the game truly would be game breaking.
 
I would much prefer a "soft limit", where when you go above it unit maintenance or production will go up. This feels much less artificial, and will be better for gameplay. I wouldn't to reach a certain point and then suddenly not be able to build units:nono:

In theory id like some sort of 'supply' and unit maintenance to always cost 1 food (maybe 2 for cavalry) in addition to gold, ala old settler units. Built too many units and your cities stop growing. That would be hard without reworking the food per city model though (as gold is a common bucket but food isn't).
 
5&6 should simply not be part of the Civ series, they are different games created for hype and should have their own name. Like Colonization.

Then all those silly arguments would not exist, seriously 1upt in Civilization what a mess..20 years ago we already enjoyed building stacks, and now some peoples who are here just cos of the big media hype around Civ 6 want to tell you that change was the best ever lol..
 
I seriously wonder why you people who apparently hate 1UPT even bought Civ 6. Really, I don't get it. It's not like a stunning surprise that they went for it again, isn't it?
 
You should not assume that those criticizing the game actually own the game they are bashing. There is no requirement that someone own the game to post in this forum -- that is the case whether they want to express dislike or disdain for the game or, for that matter, support or enthusiasm for the game.
 
Tactical war on a strategic scale map just doesn't work well and other game systems are balanced to counter this fact. This for me leads to the poor production balance. In 5 and 6 you rarely feel like you are an industrial powerhouse in the late eras, especially 6, because production is so weak now or the map would be full of units that can't move (especially with the new movement rules). For me this is where the fun has ebbed away.
 
I seriously wonder why you people who apparently hate 1UPT even bought Civ 6. Really, I don't get it. It's not like a stunning surprise that they went for it again, isn't it?

There are parts of Civ VI I like. The economic management part of it is fairly good (even if I have to fight the UI for some of it). Warfare has simply become a chore since 1UPT was introduced, and it negatively impacts the rest of the game in various ways as well. I can strongly dislike one (or several) aspects of the game and like others.
You should not assume that those criticizing the game actually own the game they are bashing. There is no requirement that someone own the game to post in this forum -- that is the case whether they want to express dislike or disdain for the game or, for that matter, support or enthusiasm for the game.

Considering that I am writing mods for Civ VI, I think it is a safe assumption that I own the game and can therefore make informed criticisms.

Really, I wouldn't bother wasting this much time debating the game's merits if I didn't (on some level) like the game and want it to be good. I don't go post on forums about games I don't like. If I'm talking about a game this much it's because I care about it and want it to be better.
 
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There are parts of Civ VI I like. The economic management part of it is fairly good (even if I have to fight the UI for some of it). Warfare has simply become a chore since 1UPT was introduced, and it negatively impacts the rest of the game in various ways as well. I can strongly dislike one (or several) aspects of the game and like others.
Problem is, how do you balance out your opinion wrt. the aspects you like vs. everyone elses' opinions wrt. what they like? I mean, beyond the obvious of "you can't". How would you approach reconciling a fanbase that has a multitude of differing likes and dislikes about this iteration of the game into something that could actually prove useful for game analysis?

Even if it's as simple as starting with your own opinions and how you consider them important. It's very hard work to change others' opinions, I'm sure we can all agree on that :p
 
I seriously wonder why you people who apparently hate 1UPT even bought Civ 6. Really, I don't get it. It's not like a stunning surprise that they went for it again, isn't it?
To me, it really isn't the issue as to what is better: stacks of doom or 1UPT. The frustration is that 1UPT was very flawed in Civ V, and there is absolutely no improvement of it in Civ VI. For something that is such a huge part of the game, it makes no sense how developers could be so unconcerned about it.
 
Problem is, how do you balance out your opinion wrt. the aspects you like vs. everyone elses' opinions wrt. what they like? I mean, beyond the obvious of "you can't". How would you approach reconciling a fanbase that has a multitude of differing likes and dislikes about this iteration of the game into something that could actually prove useful for game analysis?

Even if it's as simple as starting with your own opinions and how you consider them important. It's very hard work to change others' opinions, I'm sure we can all agree on that :p

Certainly, you cannot hope to please everyone. Yet the game will change, often in response to player feedback, as has already happened with the most recent patch. My primary concern is that if you take many of the oft-repeated complaints (not all of them--the messy/unhelpful UI and diplomatic AI are examples of exceptions) with Civ VI, you will find that they can in many cases be traced back to the current implementation of one-unit-per-tile. The obviously terrible tactics the AI employs, slow production, a less diverse unit roster, unit carpets/traffic jams... most of these problems arose as result of how Civ chose to implement 1UPT.

I'm not even arguing for stack combat to come back. I do think it would be preferable to the current system, but I don't expect that to happen. I do think that one-unit-per-tile causes a lot more problems than it is worth, however, and needs serious re-evaluation. It simply causes too many problems for the game with its, frankly, asinine implementation. Seriously, the Vox Populi mod for Civ V preserved one military unit per tile but fixed a lot of the other issues with the system. VI could've really learned a thing or two (more) from that mod.
 
It's always the same with AAA games. Has been for a decade.
Hey guys, remember Beyond Earth? No? I wonder why.
 
Well, there were times when I'd have never thought Civ would ever try to go for Panzer General type battles, yet here we are - so maybe Civ7 or Civ8 WILL get rid of 1UPT.
But arguing is instead pointless, it's a WW1 frontline where each side is shaking it's head in disbelief over what the other side appreciates.

To not step on the feet of either camp of players, I'm hoping they'll go for another revolution in gameplay like going from stacks and tiles to hexes and 1UPT was. Maybe "real-terrain" where founded cities develop into "regions" with more natural borders, where smaller satellite cities and irrigations and so on and so forth developing automatically over time without direct player intervention.
With actual armies instead of individual catapult and archer units and whatnot, automatically upgrading as times go by (it's ridiculous to see modern powers in modern times operate chariots and archers) ... time will tell, I guess.
I sure hope they'll stop rehashing Civ5/6 eventually.
 
Certainly, you cannot hope to please everyone. Yet the game will change, often in response to player feedback, as has already happened with the most recent patch. My primary concern is that if you take many of the oft-repeated complaints (not all of them--the messy/unhelpful UI and diplomatic AI are examples of exceptions) with Civ VI, you will find that they can in many cases be traced back to the current implementation of one-unit-per-tile. The obviously terrible tactics the AI employs, slow production, a less diverse unit roster, unit carpets/traffic jams... most of these problems arose as result of how Civ chose to implement 1UPT.

I'm not even arguing for stack combat to come back. I do think it would be preferable to the current system, but I don't expect that to happen. I do think that one-unit-per-tile causes a lot more problems than it is worth, however, and needs serious re-evaluation. It simply causes too many problems for the game with its, frankly, asinine implementation. Seriously, the Vox Populi mod for Civ V preserved one military unit per tile but fixed a lot of the other issues with the system. VI could've really learned a thing or two (more) from that mod.
Except that those are arguable points. The tactics, the production, the unit roster, and so on, and so forth. You are taking these things as some kind of factual basis when in fact this is just your analysis of the complaints.

This is aside from the fact that Civilisation 6 has already iterated on the concept on 1UPT with support units (Battering Rams, etc) and the necessity for a more diverse attacking set than just three Archers (with City Walls, Defensive Health, etc). The effectiveness of these systems (or lack thereof) is not an argument for them not existing. The system was re-evaluated. It may not have been to your tastes, and I haven't played Vox Populi so I can't comment there. But expecting a game developer to straight-up implement your preferred mechanics from a community mod is not the solution here. Firaxis' designers will have their own ideas to apply, balanced against an entire game's playerbase, and not just those who play a popular CiV modification (I'm not underselling VP here either, and I'm a games modder myself. But the scope is entirely different). There are sometimes more than one ideal solution to a problem, and I often rub up against fellow modders who don't understand that just because modder X's approach wasn't chosen, that modder X is therefore being snubbed or passed over in some way.

This isn't the case. There are various ways various problems can be addressed.
 
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