C2C - Buildings Discussion

[ThoricFrame]

What would be the benefit of that specialist though, in game terms? He's eating 3 food and let's say producing 3 food, for a net impact of +1 +1 . In this situation he'd be preventing the city from shrinking but in effect the city has shrunk anyway as he provides no net benefit, but this isn't really a big deal as cities grow so quickly.

In reality a food specialist producing enough food to sustain his existence will actually produce surplus food because of the buildings or civics that give multipliers to food production. In game terms these specialists would basically be adding additional (weaker) farm plots to your city, effectively increasing the city radius. Now, because they produce excess food they are likely to be used all the time as long as your city isn't suffering from , then when those food things become obsolete you are already using the food specialists so your city will shrink anyway!

My argument isn't based around physically where these people would pull the food from, but the effect it would have on the game. If they're worth using then you will be using them all the time and wont fulfill their purpose. This isn't even opening the can of worms that results from unlimited food specialists (say, as a result of some possible future agricultural civic)...

 

[EldrinFal]

What would be the benefit of that specialist though, in game terms? He's eating 3 food and let's say producing 3 food, for a net impact of +1 +1 . In this situation he'd be preventing the city from shrinking but in effect the city has shrunk anyway as he provides no net benefit, but this isn't really a big deal as cities grow so quickly.

In reality a food specialist producing enough food to sustain his existence will actually produce surplus food because of the buildings or civics that give multipliers to food production. In game terms these specialists would basically be adding additional (weaker) farm plots to your city, effectively increasing the city radius. Now, because they produce excess food they are likely to be used all the time as long as your city isn't suffering from , then when those food things become obsolete you are already using the food specialists so your city will shrink anyway!

My argument isn't based around physically where these people would pull the food from, but the effect it would have on the game. If they're worth using then you will be using them all the time and wont fulfill their purpose. This isn't even opening the can of worms that results from unlimited food specialists (say, as a result of some possible future agricultural civic)...

The buildings with food multipliers are something to factor in for sure. Just as they are now. A corporation with plenty of resources can provide a city with A LOT of food, arguably for very little cost since money is plentiful.

Other than the case of Wonders or end-game Civics that remove all or from a city, there will always be soft caps with anger and health. Anger triggers revs, unhealthiness will (eventually) trigger disease.

Also, Koshling is reworking the way Growth works for cities in regards to amount of food needed, and amount stored from Granaries and such. Early reports from him (in another thread) indicate growth is going to be significantly slower.

Good convo though! It's great to hear opinions on all sides.

 

[BlueGenie]

I assume surround plots are being developed and used in a rural fashion and the city itself has the specialists and buildings, hence not setting a specialist to work on the farm/grassland/river tile you have outside the city. Setting a pop to work that tile is having a Farmer in it's radius.

 

[climat]

City itself produces 3 . It may represent farmers in the city or in nearer area than surrounding tiles. So why not farmer specialist in cities?
Also, apart from reality problem, I think something can be added if it helps game play. I'm not sure about a farmer specialist, though.

Anyway, this whole discussion is off-topic.

 

[EldrinFal]

City itself produces 3 . It may represent farmers in the city or in nearer area than surrounding tiles. So why not farmer specialist in cities?
Also, apart from reality problem, I think something can be added if it helps game play. I'm not sure about a farmer specialist, though.

Anyway, this whole discussion is off-topic.

You're right. This is off-topic. I've created a new thread for Specialist discussion in case other people have opinions.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10862969#post10862969

 

[Koshling]

Just pushed to SVN a fix to the building replacement issues. Free buildings will now both replace and be replaced by other buildings (free or not). If the replacing building gets destroyed the original will come out of moth-balls

 

[EldrinFal]

Just pushed to SVN a fix to the building replacement issues. Free buildings will now both replace and be replaced by other buildings (free or not). If the replacing building gets destroyed the original will come out of moth-balls

Thanks for the fix, Kosh.

 

[climat]

OK, I was confused.
There is sacrificial altar (current one) which was added in RoM iirc, and there was another sacrificial altar which was Aztec UB replacing courthouse. The latter was taken out (Culture (Aztec) is required to build ball court, former Maya UB.).
So, why is it a Great Wonder? It was a regular building in RoM/AND.
Since sacrificial altar is too weak to be considered as Great Wonder and slavery allows whipping unlike AND, I suggest making it a regular building and adding original benefit (-50% sacrifice anger duration) of former Aztec UB to it.

 

[EldrinFal]

OK, I was confused.
There is sacrificial altar (current one) which was added in RoM iirc, and there was another sacrificial altar which was Aztec UB replacing courthouse. The latter was taken out (Culture (Aztec) is required to build ball court, former Maya UB.).
So, why is it a Great Wonder? It was a regular building in RoM/AND.
Since sacrificial altar is too weak to be considered as Great Wonder and slavery allows whipping unlike AND, I suggest making it a regular building and adding original benefit (-50% sacrifice anger duration) of former Aztec UB to it.

When you rush build using population, are you sacrificing your people on the altar? What a savage you are, Climat!

 

[climat]

Sacrificial altar exists for sacrifice!
I used whipping sometimes. But I usually wait for some more turn and keep my citizens. It is better.
It can be used for animal sacrifice, but the only problem is that it's too late (Ancient Era) for that.

BTW, Do AIs use whipping? In AND, AIs was crazy for it (Not surprise.), so Afforess disabled it. Same problem can occur in C2C. I know it's off-topic, but I'm just curious..

 

[EldrinFal]

Sacrificial altar exists for sacrifice!
I used whipping sometimes. But I usually wait for some more turn and keep my citizens. It is better.
It can be used for animal sacrifice, but the only problem is that it's too late (Ancient Era) for that.

I brought up the idea of sacrificing animals or units at cities with the Sacrificial Altar, but Koshling (or was it DH?) mentioned there was some trouble getting that to work properly. Or balanced correctly.

 

[ThoricFrame]

Whipping doesn't seem too useful to me in c2c, the unhappiness lasts forever on snail and buildings are fairly quick to build anyway. I used to use it in other mods or vanilla when I had a city with low production but high food, generate some angry citizens then whip them to death so they make a temple to cheer up the survivors.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I brought up the idea of sacrificing animals or units at cities with the Sacrificial Altar, but Koshling (or was it DH?) mentioned there was some trouble getting that to work properly. Or balanced correctly.

The problem is balance. Although having something like a subdued horse be able to build the horse farm if it is available may work.

It should be possible to give each animal the ability to do any one of the three missions "hurry building", "sell for money" or "kill for food". That would be a quick solution to my "butcher" mission which would have given all three.

 

[EldrinFal]

The problem is balance. Although having something like a subdued horse be able to build the horse farm if it is available may work.

It should be possible to give each animal the ability to do any one of the three missions "hurry building", "sell for money" or "kill for food". That would be a quick solution to my "butcher" mission which would have given all three.

That seems reasonable. What about "sacrifice for divine inspiration" ? Gives but can only be done where there is a temple or sacrificial altar.

 

[EldrinFal]

@DancingHoskuld & Hydromancerx

Not sure if you guys have been following the thread below, but ThoricFrame posted a screenshot of his(her?) capital in a recent game showing a whopping 144 population with no end in sight. Food production is well over 700 with only 450 needed to grow!

Koshling had an idea for food waste that should slow it down when there is so much excess, but I think some of the bonuses need to be scaled back to avoid such a huge production amt.

Thoric listed the bonuses to the city and made a suggestion for the religious buildings to provide set food bonus amts instead of %. What do you guys think? At the least, lower them from 5% to like 2%. Maybe even the corps need to be toned down a bit.

The Victuallers guild hall and Temple of Osiris may need a slight step down in % as well. 10-15% is still a big boost for a single building. Although by itself these bonuses don't seem big, when all added up they end up being a huge amount.

Additionally, Thoric's Trade is providing a huge amount of food as well. Equal to and (in a later screenshot) greater than the city's tile production.



http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=436363&page=7

Hokely dokely! Save included. Looking through what's there for all the multipliers.
Capital +20% from feudalism
Building bonus: Victuallers guild hall: +25%
Resources bonus (80%)
Cereal mills: +6% each for corn, wheat, rice (no potatoes). +18%
Mobby meats: +4% each for cow, pig, deer (no whale or sheep). +12%
Druidism: Nature altar wheat and corn, +5% each. +10%
Shamanism: Shaman temple cow, pig +5% each. +10%
Kemetism: Temple of Osiris, +25% with wheat
Ngai Narok Bless: +5% from pig

Building Ngai Narok Bless requires your state religion to be Ngaiism, which it was at one point. I guess it isn't disabled on switching because I'm still getting a bonus, but I'm not able to build the cow version.

I placed the cow and wheat bonuses using great farmers, and am in the process of planting a rice which will give me another +5% food in that city from druidism.

IMO the bonuses from the religions should probably be flat, because they aren't that useful as 5% when your city is a reasonable size, but when you get corporations that percentage stacks up quickly!

 

[BlueGenie]

IMO religion bonuses to food should be flat, yes. I also think they should require the religion as State Religion to work at all. If Druidism/Shamanism/Ngaiism teaches a great way to handle crop and animals then the population has to adhere to that too to gain the bonus. Having no state might be alright for bonuses to count too, but having another religion means the farmers and butchers and cattle owners adhere more to the teachings of the State Religion than to Druidism/Shamanism/Ngaiism, thus the city should lose the bonus from those buildings.
Later on in the game Cereal Mill and Mobby Meats grant similar bonuses anyway: might have them replace the old religion buildings rather than requiring State Religion to work? Though IMO those should have a flat value too, like Butcher has.
Besides, how many buildings can you really have that give a bonus to food from the same resource?
A flat rate that increases with time/upgraded building might be better than a %, and having buildings upgrade to each new way of handling the resources available rather than having 4 or more buildings that all give a bonus from the same resource.

Cheers

 

[Koshling]

IMO religion bonuses to food should be flat, yes. I also think they should require the religion as State Religion to work at all. If Druidism/Shamanism/Ngaiism teaches a great way to handle crop and animals then the population has to adhere to that too to gain the bonus. Having no state might be alright for bonuses to count too, but having another religion means the farmers and butchers and cattle owners adhere more to the teachings of the State Religion than to Druidism/Shamanism/Ngaiism, thus the city should lose the bonus from those buildings.
Later on in the game Cereal Mill and Mobby Meats grant similar bonuses anyway: might have them replace the old religion buildings rather than requiring State Religion to work? Though IMO those should have a flat value too, like Butcher has.
Besides, how many buildings can you really have that give a bonus to food from the same resource?
A flat rate that increases with time/upgraded building might be better than a %, and having buildings upgrade to each new way of handling the resources available rather than having 4 or more buildings that all give a bonus from the same resource.

Cheers

I would support making religious buildings a flat bonus, and also having them only work if the religion is the state religion (maybe half bonus with no state religion). Other than that I don't think we need major adjustments if I implement the waste proposal I se out in the other thread (or a least I don't think we should make other changes yet until we see the net effect of just those changes)

 

[BlueGenie]

I'm thinking that the net effect will only reduce the speed at which those cities grow. The end result of 144+ cities will still be there. If that's an alright number, then sure, no need to remove some of the % bonuses from resources. If not then maybe nerf them just a tad.

Cheers

 

[Koshling]

I'm thinking that the net effect will only reduce the speed at which those cities grow. The end result of 144+ cities will still be there. If that's an alright number, then sure, no need to remove some of the % bonuses from resources. If not then maybe nerf them just a tad.

Cheers

I think they are fine eventually, but it should take you a hell of a lot longer to get there (personal view only though)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No to the change to flat rate to the Druid, Shaman and Ngai food bonuses. They have already been greatly reduced by requiring the bonus in the vicinity of the city and the percent halved.

The problem here is that I have not made those buildings go obsolete yet. Of the three only the Druid missionary buildings go obsolete until recently. I put something in for shaman last week.

The missionary buildings go obsolete at Engineering and Invention. The temple extensions need to go obsolete a bit later say at Physics.

IMO we should get rid of the Great Farmer or at least make it only able to place one of each type. It is too OP.