C2C : Game Speed

I'm not quite sure what to make of this post, Koshling. Though I did notice you revealed yourself as a Vorlon. I wondered if "Kosh" was the same taken from B5 :mischief:



Is it important to have the same exact ending game YEAR for all speeds?

I think matching tech discoveries with years is going to be difficult at best considering the number of techs and buildings in C2C that have been added-- and are continuing to be added regularly. Thunderbrd, if you can get those spreadsheets going that you are working on, I think that would help quite a bit. And besides matching up years and techs, the Spreadsheets should help with balancing buildings, research, and units overall.

Its been a long struggle today and I gave up in some frustration and just decided to play to recover some morale ;) But they're coming and yes, that's a big reason to do this!

I think its a good idea to have the same game ending year for all speeds but is it absolutely necessary? perhaps not... but why would it be necessary to deviate?

In answer to your question Praetyre, I think its necessary for us to determine the technologies that REALLY represent the point in RL Human history where we would say that humanity broke through into that new era. Then, once we've decided on a tech to represent the change of the era and the date that should take place, we can determine through some unified efforts in playtesting what turn count, on average, we tend to end up there on a Noble level setting.

At the moment, the easiest is to just calibrate towards 0AD and use Theology as a guide. If you're getting there much before 0AD, we've got the techs coming too quickly, too far after and they are coming too slow. After that we can narrow to points before and after, particularly world wars and their years and the birth of Sumeria.
 
Its been a long struggle today and I gave up in some frustration and just decided to play to recover some morale ;) But they're coming and yes, that's a big reason to do this!

It is a daunting task to make those spreadsheets, but C2C needs serious auditing for costs and output of buildings, and Cost/Str for units. I'm glad you are taking up the challenge. ;)

I think its a good idea to have the same game ending year for all speeds but is it absolutely necessary? perhaps not... but why would it be necessary to deviate?

Actually, I didn't realize they all did. I've never reached the final turn in ANY C2C game. It just updates too fast with cool things I want to use! Particularly in the early game. So... that means a restart... ad infinitum

But knowing whether we should or not obviously has a big bearing on how to divy up the increments. I put together a spreadsheet for the multipliers in game speed and I'll need to create one for the increments now to maintain the end game year thing.
 
You really made me feel better about a day where I felt I had wasted a lot of time on something I was worried few would see any benefit in Eldrin... thanks for the boost! I needed that.

Its nice to be working with someone who appreciates the value of data management and careful planning and balancing.

Currently, its not just the game ending year that should be in harmony, but roughly all era change years from one speed to another as well are in as close approximation as possible given that we had the no months in BC bug to contend with when we did that before - again, not sure if its been changed much since.
 
You really made me feel better about a day where I felt I had wasted a lot of time on something I was worried few would see any benefit in Eldrin... thanks for the boost! I needed that.

Its nice to be working with someone who appreciates the value of data management and careful planning and balancing.

Currently, its not just the game ending year that should be in harmony, but roughly all era change years from one speed to another as well are in as close approximation as possible given that we had the no months in BC bug to contend with when we did that before - again, not sure if its been changed much since.

Yeah, to be honest I'm really surprised that things are added without considering them on a spreadsheet prior. But it's just a hobby for fun, so I guess it might be too heavy handed to require such a thing.

And I'm glad you came back to work on that stuff! I pondered doing it myself a few weeks ago, but I just don't have the time. Especially if I'm to work on other various tweaks and revamping the Civics, which keeps getting put on the back burner as I run into other things.

AIAndy removed that month limitation thing so we have more flexibility to do increments by month EARLIER if need be.
 
Interesting you should mention years. I've long noticed some unusual inconsistencies in where the "breakthrough techs" (for the purposes of this exercise, we'll look at the first "tier" of techs in that era), appear and their historical dates of discovery:

Spoiler :
Slavery: Indeterminate, but probably at least as old as agriculture, and possibly as old as warfare.
Livestock Domestication: Will vary a lot, but if you want to take sheep as an upper bound, 11,000 BC
Mysticism: Indeterminate as to what this implies; religion could be tens of thousands of years old depending on how you define it.

Ship Building: The Egyptians had barges, and the Sumerians launched naval invasions. You'd expect this to be Ancient, if anything.
Alphabet: 2700 BC
Mathematics: 3000 BC, at the latest. Again, Ancient.
Currency: 2000 BC
Monarchy: Approximately 3000 BC, going by Chinese and Sumerian records. Ancient.
Iron Working: India and China may possibly have had it as early as 1200 BC, or as late as 500, which is when Europe got it. What's more, Mesopotamia had it by 900 BC. When exactly is Classical?
Glass Blowing: 50 BC. Sounds more like mid-late Classical to me.

Theology: Year zero may be a bit premature. Earliest is 27 AD (assuming the birthdate of Christ is off by 6 years), but theology in the sense it's generally understood is centuries later.
Feudalism: Approximately 500 AD

Oil Painting: 1400
Printing Press:1440
Political Philosophy: Is not an invention of the Renaissance, and dates back at least to Confucius and Plato. Even if we restrict this to Augustinian-derived thinking (itself influenced by Aristotle), that still puts this in the Medieval Era.
Gunpowder: 1000, but if you mean arquebuses and the like, sometime during the late 1400s.
Astronomy: Definitely not Renaissance: Medieval Islamic if you want to be conservative.

Military Science: Other than Sun Tzu, I guess this fits at about 1800.
Steam Engine: 1800

Advanced Rocketry: 1950, if you're going for Sputnik as the next step up from V-2 bombs.
Aerodynamics: Not exactly sure what this is representative of. Pass.
Naval Aviation: WWII, assuming you're meaning large scale use.
Manufacturing: What distinguishes this from Assembly Line and Industrialism?
Radar: WWII or thereabouts.
Computers: Ditto.
Mass Media: I'd guess 1950, assuming you mean multinational media congloremates and not newsreels and William Randolph Hearst.
Laser: 1953
Modern Seismology: Pass.

Wearable Computers: Pass.
Quantum Teleportation: 1997
Rapid Prototyping: Late 1980's
Biofuels: Unclear. Probably late 1970's at earliest.
Cloning: 1996.


I'd be happy to provide more for comparison, but we can already see some serious inconsistencies with the Ancient/Classical distinction (in my timeplan, Ancient is 6000-2000 BC, while Classical is 2000 BC-500 AD), as well as several techs that are either unclear in meaning or totally misplaced. I suspect the main reason for this peculiar chronological disparity is that the tech tree was originally constructed in both C2C and vanilla as a series of multiple parallel paths, with very few chokepoints outside of things like Sedentary Lifestyle.

Also, some of the Ancient era techs really, really bug me. Why is Agriculture later than Livestock/Poultry Domestication and Sedentary Lifestyle? Why is Priesthood earlier than The Wheel? Why aren't Archery, Pottery, Stargazing and Ancestor Worship in the Prehistoric era? Also, why doesn't Megafauna Domestication speed up Elephant Riding? If you can tame a mammoth, why not a less hairy one? And on the other side of the coin, what does Caste System represent, and why is it earlier than Monarchy?

I like the idea of "breakthrough" techs, and can see them possessing lots of potential as era chokepoints, where the only way to advance into the next era is to research a costly-but-rewarding tech like Gunpowder or Computers, after you've researched all of the "end tier" techs in your own era. Obviously, we'd need to mill the whole idea over further, given how radically this would effect player and AI strategy but if I were to make some basic suggestions;

Spoiler :
Sedentary Lifestyle
Requires: Chiefdom, Ceremonial Burial, Naturopathy
Leads To: [x19 techs]

Iron Working
Requires: Gardening, Military Training
Leads To: [x30 techs]

Feudalism
Requires: Machinery, Music, Poetry, Sanitation
Leads To: Stirrup, Theology

Gunpowder
Requires: Algebra, Anatomy, Compass, Tournaments
Leads To: Astronomy, Oil Painting, Printing Press

Steam Power
Requires: Archaeology, Marine Biology, Meteorology, Paleontology
Leads To: Assembly Line, Electricity, Military Science, Steel, Thermodynamics, Medicine

Globalization
Requires: Electronics, Mechanized Warfare, Modern Physics, Rocketry
Leads To: [x69 techs]

Cloning
Requires: [x78 techs]
Leads To: [x81 techs]

Lunar Colonization
Requires: [x88 techs]
Leads To: [x89 techs]
 
@Praetyre

Political Philosophy: Is not an invention of the Renaissance, and dates back at least to Confucius and Plato. Even if we restrict this to Augustinian-derived thinking (itself influenced by Aristotle), that still puts this in the Medieval Era.

That's what normal Philosophy is for which comes at mid Classical Era.

As for Sedentary Lifestyle and Iron Working, they are locked in since I balanced those over and over and over. No moving around the Prehistoric or Ancient Eras. We have been over them so many times.

And Lunar Colonization and the other galactic era techs have been moved around a lot too. I am not moving the space eras, I finally got them to work and not break.

I hope strategyonly can back me up on this that we spent months working out the prehistoric and galactic eras. No more tweaking those eras! :deadhorse:

Also, some of the Ancient era techs really, really bug me. Why is Agriculture later than Livestock/Poultry Domestication and Sedentary Lifestyle?

Because you can have nomadic people who do not plant crops. Such as Mongols who have livestock such as goats, horses, and camel but no farms.

Why is Priesthood earlier than The Wheel?

Because the Aztecs had sacrificial priests but still had not discovered the wheel yet.

Why aren't Archery, Pottery, Stargazing and Ancestor Worship in the Prehistoric era?

Because those are all things that came later and the techs they rely upon come later.

Also, why doesn't Megafauna Domestication speed up Elephant Riding? If you can tame a mammoth, why not a less hairy one?

This was so no tech was a dead end tech. This may change, but for now it was the only way to get ti to every tech was not a dead end tech.

And on the other side of the coin, what does Caste System represent, and why is it earlier than Monarchy?

Caste System can be a religious caste such as a priesthood, or a war cast such as chief and his warriors or later on it can be a nobility thing.
 
I can agree on the worker turns forever... I'm always annoyed and confused why having a cart path/mud path/road completely fails reduce the time it takes to make a mud path/road/paved road on the exact same square. You have to go extremely far out of your way to not reuse a solid inch to make a better road way.

No one has felt strong enough to code such a change. Such an upgrade should cost less and be faster. Were as it was assumed that improvements would upgrade in BtS eg hamlets to cottages, no provision was made for routes.

At the same time it takes a single turn to upgrade to or from a mine... logic fail. Lets see 44 years a turn for 80 turns is 320+3200=3520 years to make a stone tools workshop... lets not ignore that this time is shrunk repeated by -25% to work times techs... so it ends up like 20*44= 880 years. Again logic fail. 10*44=440 years. In short that number is insane... granted gathers can cluster up and shrink that time, but that is crazy... and it take all of one turn to sack it.

No logic involved. Things were just pasted to the front to get the feel for the prehistoric era. Then emergency work done to get the improvements to work together. I know I did the latter. Now we have workers upgrading. It does not hang together and needs some one who cares to audit it and make some suggestions. I keep mentioning this problem but no one has taken it up. I can fix it I just don't know what is needed.
 
@praetyre

I would be wary of some of those dates. For me the discovery of a technology in Civ is not when it was first used. But rather when it was fully accepted and implemented throuought the nation as an accepted working practice.

For example, (and I fully realise you didn't mention it) The discovery of gunpowder in game equates to when it became a widespread and accepted form of weaponry and not of the earlier Chinese discovery that never really influenced much in terms of warfare (I might not be doing it justice, but it was more of a side show) I give this example as for me it's one of the principles of 'Tech discovery' that is employed by the game.

In short, The tech represents the understanding, acceptance and practical implementation of said tech. Not the first breakthrough and small beginnings of said tech.

As always, I apologise for poor formatting, spelling etc as I am at work and posting via my phone.
 
I'm aware these dates are rough estimates, especially those for the earlier eras. The intent was to question whether it was wise to aim for a Theology-0 BC/AD mean, since from a historical perspective Theology was discovered centuries later (which would be hundreds of turns later in game terms), as well as to highlight my opinion on what I perceive as ambiguities into what the Ancient/Classical eras constitute.

If the earlier eras are set in stone, then I think the breakthrough technologies are dead in the water barring the creation of totally new technologies that represent nothing but these breakthroughs, like the age advancements in the Age of Empires/Kingdoms/Mythology series, seeing as how the earliest eras by far have the widest difference in dates, and I suspect this is due to them literally covering a much larger breadth; Prehistoric lasts 6000/44,000 on my own settings years, Ancient 4000, Classical 2500, Medieval 900, Renaissance 400, Industrial 150 and modern 50. Past this, it lengthens out due to the 3000 AD ending, but it's otherwise a very steady curve.

And I can't see that jiving too well with a lot of people either, and I'm not sure whether it'd be possible to make it a game option, assuming that it even has enough demand to make it one. Hmm, decisions, decisions...
 
Feel the need to point out that the printing press was not Guthenberg, Europe but China way before. First complete printed book was around 868 AD (Diamond Sutra). This is when it was understood and widely (in Asia) used.
Woodblock printing on cloth had been around several hundred years by then. When it started is not known but the earliest surviving cloths are from around 220 AD.

Cheers
 
We should split off discussions about the tech tree to elsewhere.

But before we do I just want to say, Prehistoric to Ancient tech development is really tough to work out in Civ because we didn't develop most of those technologies gradually. With the advent of Sumeria around 6000BC we suddenly had, overnight:

Mathematics
Writing
Mapping
Religion (Priesthood)
The Wheel
New Construction Techniques
Astrology
Astronomy
Copper Working
Bronze Working (though somehow without a strong trade route to tin)

and all that is just to name a few things... In some ways we still find that Sumerians were more advanced than we are today. Go figure. Makes determining a correct development path in Civ a bit challenging, no?
 
As I was looking around in the XML files for some specific data, I happened upon some of the game options and noticed under the Map Size settings MORE multipliers! :eek:

Production isn't in there, but there is a research modifier, trade, maintenance,war weariness... and more. Some I can understand, but ... maybe someone can offer an idea of why research should be affected by map size. Is it assuming a larger map = more cities to research, so research should take longer to compensate?
 
As I was looking around in the XML files for some specific data, I happened upon some of the game options and noticed under the Map Size settings MORE multipliers! :eek:

Production isn't in there, but there is a research modifier, trade, maintenance,war weariness... and more. Some I can understand, but ... maybe someone can offer an idea of why research should be affected by map size. Is it assuming a larger map = more cities to research, so research should take longer to compensate?

I think that's right.
 
We should split off discussions about the tech tree to elsewhere.

But before we do I just want to say, Prehistoric to Ancient tech development is really tough to work out in Civ because we didn't develop most of those technologies gradually. With the advent of Sumeria around 6000BC we suddenly had, overnight:

Mathematics
Writing
Mapping
Religion (Priesthood)
The Wheel
New Construction Techniques
Astrology
Astronomy
Copper Working
Bronze Working (though somehow without a strong trade route to tin)

and all that is just to name a few things... In some ways we still find that Sumerians were more advanced than we are today. Go figure. Makes determining a correct development path in Civ a bit challenging, no?

Thunderbrd
, using the milestone tech plan, can you provide an approximate date for each era to end? (Using Snail) I think if I had one set of values I could use the research multipliers per speed to figure out what they should be across all speeds.

Edit: If that is how it is supposed to be now, I suspect a lot of new things have been added since they were set, changing the research rates or total turns req'd to get to the end of the eras.
 
The dates I use on (a modified) Eternity, if anyone is interested, are;

Spoiler :
Prehistoric: 6000 BC (Turn 1000)
Ancient: 2000 BC (Turn 1500)
Classical: 500 AD (Turn 4000)
Medieval: 1400 (Turn 4900)
Renaissance: 1800 (Turn 5700)
Early Industrial (2 Month Intervals): 1900 (Turn 6300)
Late Industrial (1 Month Intervals): 1950 (Turn 6900)
Modern: 2000 (Turn 7500)
Transhuman: 2050 (Turn 8100)
Space: 3000 (Turn 10,000)


Scaling that down to a 5000 turn Snail, you'd get;
Spoiler :
Prehistoric: 88 (with 50,000 BC start date)/12 years per turn (500 turns)
Ancient: 16 years per turn (250 turns)
Classical: 2 years per turn (1250 turns)
Medieval: 2 years per turn (450 turns)
Renaissance: 1 year per turn (400 turns)
Early Industrial: 4 months per turn (300 turns)
Late Industrial: 2 months per turn (300 turns)
Modern: 2 months per turn (300 turns)
Transhuman: 2 months per turn (300 turns)
Space: 1 year per turn (950 turns)
 
Certainly things have been changed a lot since I worked on this file.

Ok, so I think I understand your question... let me hazard an answer.

I established the beginning of the game at 12000BC but after later research I think it should be about 300,000BC for the emergence of the Homo Sapien. We can debate that still a bit I'm sure.

Sumeria, the beginning of known civilization, arose in 6000BC so I considered 6000BC to be the start of the Ancient Era - I should review what techs we have set to progress a player to the ancient era before hazarding a guess which one should be the zero point concept there. I believe my wife and I usually find ourselves entering the ancient era with Mysticism, which does make some sense if we consider that the ability to spread the concept of a 'religion' at all was perhaps what made it possible to organize a society - that's what they were teaching in Soc 101 anyhow. (Of course, that religion was what we would call Mesopotamianism and mysticism and Animism would've come long long before that and Hinduism would've been hand in hand with the Caste System... but I haven't made those points loudly because we haven't paved the way for that conversation much.)

Anyhoo... then we have the Ancient era progressing to Classical and that'd be primarily earmarked by the rise and fall of Babylon, the emergence of Judaism and Monotheism, and Greek philosophy. Soooo... something in there. Not sure which tech to mark for all that but I think we're getting into some more rational (and perhaps because its better taught by our modern education systems and leaves less to theoretical conjecture) tech progressions at this point on our tech tree. Again, we should pull up the techs that are set to lead us into that era and figure out which is most central and humanly datable with some research. But I figure it'd be about year 2000BC.

Then the next category would be crossed at 0 AD and we jump right into the middle ages. And ok, sure Theology may be as others have said, widely recognized as being in practice around 25 AD or so or maybe even after, and the establishment of the Christian religion surely does come AFTER Christ was born and made his big impact in the world... BUT we can also just simplify and look at AD as After Death and BC as Before Christ so in that perspective, Theology makes a good zero point.

The middle ages was a very long and drawn out period where technology was vastly hindered by political systems that wanted to maintain control and had to strategize against the people's hunger for knowledge to keep them in the dark enough to keep them under the thumb of their dogmas. That said, we still took vast steps in some technologies, particularly that of war, as conflict was rife and constant as the common man served powerful masters who played complex games of court intrigue and dominance.

Then we enter the Rennaissance. Why? Because we began to throw off the shackles of the church dogmas in little ways here and there. This opened us up to finally spreading our wings as people in all areas of human development. As for WHEN this began to take place, it was probably most encapsulated in Martin Luther's break from the Catholic Church and that was about 1500 (1520 to be precise but in game measurements 1500 would fit best). What tech would that be? After some thought, Copernicus's life zeroed out at about 1500 as well, which would indicate that Astronomy could be considered the basic turning point that defined the entry into the Rennaissance.

The end of the Rennaissance saw the birth of the real Age of Exploration and Colonization, around 1700. I'd think Flintlock defined that - Musketmen...

Then around 1800 we see the birth of Representative Democracy (US). But that would take place in the same game era as above really so we can consider the assembly line and the introduction into the industrial era in about 1850 that really defines the next shift or so.

I'm not sure what I established from there in my considerations on game time... maybe that's a good place to start from for now.

I guess in summary, and to go look at Praetyre's concept above, I suggest something along the lines of:
Spoiler :

Prehistoric: 12000- 6000 BC
Ancient: 6000-2000 BC
Classical: 2000-0 AD
Medieval: 0-1500 AD
Renaissance: 1500-1700 AD
Colonial Era: 1700-1800 AD
Industrial 1800-1900 AD
Wild West-World Wars: 1900-1950 AD
Space Age: 1950-2000 AD
Information Age: 2000-2100 AD
Transhuman/Cybertronic Era: 2100-2250 AD
Robotic Era: 2250-2500 AD
Galactic Era: 2500-3000 AD

to get to the end of the game.
 
I think the 'generally known' as the founding dates makes perfect sense... the real reason that Columbus traditionally gets the credit for discovering America is that he then told people about it... SunTzu was successfully make a state secret for over 800 years. The 'book' he wrote was on wood strips tied together. Think about that.

If we wanted to follow the Egyptian's model of ocean capable craft... basketry would be the prerequisit for ship building. They made those barges out of woven reeds and resin not lumber... which had something to do with a lack of expendable forests. The Aztecs lived in an area so hilly and mountanous that the wheel was ignored instead they ran around on foot... and the messages were written with woven beads.

As far as I know the game ignores signal towers completely... worse if you believe a certian legend from India... Summerians were rather late to the game. In this legeend the gods fight in chariots... using what sounds like Macross missle spam techniques.

Resently they've found a few of what appear to be the foundations of cities all on the same level of the ocean floor surrounding the western part of India. If these are the cities like the one defended in that legend... those are the foundations of 14000 year old major cities. They just were at ocean level during some point in the ice age.

In the intrest of not having to rechange everything endlessly and getting on with things... I agree with the modders that once the subdued animals are dealt with they freeze the prehistoric and then so on as the Mod progresses. I'm sure that after C2C is declared completed other with use i t a basis for a future mod anyway.

----

Oh, and the end date in vanilla BTS is not actually arbitrary... its scripted. I did this multiple games and the same thing kept happening. Ever notice that you can keep playing after you win? I've done that for decades after I one. A funny thing always happened. I ended up on a desert planet. No exceptions.

You'll notice that happens if you just nuke the planet... it ends up an unrecoverable desert covered in toxic waste. I forgoed nukes and over ran the planet with conventional forces... had only 5 cities on the planet... rand a green as possible.... still ended up in a sunlivable and box.

I'm not sure of the specifics, but apparently the games has a climate model that forces the planet into a desert wastleland. Its going to happen and you can't stop it. So the end date for time conquest is designed to keep you from noticing this.
 
Most of that about India is true... except that Sumerian history states itself as much older than we attribute it as well.

As for the climate model issue... the terraforming abilities in AND and that we've inherrited should repair that with ease... there's also the Gaia project or something like that that moves us in the opposite direction into a more verdant world at some point.
 
The dates I use on (a modified) Eternity, if anyone is interested, are;

Spoiler :
Prehistoric: 6000 BC (Turn 1000)
Ancient: 2000 BC (Turn 1500)
Classical: 500 AD (Turn 4000)
Medieval: 1400 (Turn 4900)
Renaissance: 1800 (Turn 5700)
Early Industrial (2 Month Intervals): 1900 (Turn 6300)
Late Industrial (1 Month Intervals): 1950 (Turn 6900)
Modern: 2000 (Turn 7500)
Transhuman: 2050 (Turn 8100)
Space: 3000 (Turn 10,000)


Scaling that down to a 5000 turn Snail, you'd get;
Spoiler :
Prehistoric: 88 (with 50,000 BC start date)/12 years per turn (500 turns)
Ancient: 16 years per turn (250 turns)
Classical: 2 years per turn (1250 turns)
Medieval: 2 years per turn (450 turns)
Renaissance: 1 year per turn (400 turns)
Early Industrial: 4 months per turn (300 turns)
Late Industrial: 2 months per turn (300 turns)
Modern: 2 months per turn (300 turns)
Transhuman: 2 months per turn (300 turns)
Space: 1 year per turn (950 turns)

I was about to ask you about the increments :) Are you setting your research rates differently than what C2C has? Just wondering how you're "enforcing" the eras.
 
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