C2C : Game Speed

[strategyonly]

That's an interesting idea, but the danger is that it forces everyone into something fairly close to a pre-determined research path. I think I'd prefer if we calculated a few target dates (era boundaries maybe?) and had the game work out the total tech amount to each point, then adjust based on whether your total tech score is ahead/behind that rather than on an individual tech basis.

I suppose if people are concerned with matching their research to the RL equivalent, date-wise, that could be an interesting option. Sounds like it would be self adjusting for added/removed techs as well.

It would also provide same negative feedback on run-away teching relative to the other players.

I agree, i believe this is worth a try for now, and see what people say, i know alot of them really like the RL time level as close as possible.

 

[AIAndy]

That's an interesting idea, but the danger is that it forces everyone into something fairly close to a pre-determined research path. I think I'd prefer if we calculated a few target dates (era boundaries maybe?) and had the game work out the total tech amount to each point, then adjust based on whether your total tech score is ahead/behind that rather than on an individual tech basis.

Ok, that way fewer dates need to be set.
So the reference value is (beaker sum of all techs up to era X / beaker sum of all techs researched by player). The adjustment will not be sudden but instead increase/decrease by a certain amount every Y turns.
I will put that on my list but it is certainly not top priority.

 

[Koshling]

Ok, that way fewer dates need to be set.
So the reference value is (beaker sum of all techs up to era X / beaker sum of all techs researched by player). The adjustment will not be sudden but instead increase/decrease by a certain amount every Y turns.
I will put that on my list but it is certainly not top priority.

Very like the way flexible difficulty operates really (but working on tech rate rather than difficulty level)

 

[EldrinFal]

With Marathon or Snail as the "norm" for C2C, would it be worthwhile to shift the values in the GameSpeed file down 1 or 2 tiers?

 

[AIAndy]

With Marathon or Snail as the "norm" for C2C, would it be worthwhile to shift the values in the GameSpeed file down 1 or 2 tiers?

That might disrupt currently ongoing games.
Do you want further steps between the established speeds or one slower than eternity?

 

[EldrinFal]

That might disrupt currently ongoing games.
Do you want further steps between the established speeds or one slower than eternity?

I was thinking that people new to the mod or who didn't frequent the forums may not realize that Marathon or Snail was the "Normal" for C2C. And I can't imagine Blitz or Quick being playable with their settings as is.

But additional "Speed" options presents some other interesting possibilities. For example, there could be one dedicated to Very Slow Research, or Faster Production, etc.

And it would be possible to change over all values except the year/month increment settings, which is probably what would screw up games the most I suspect.

 

[AIAndy]

I was thinking that people new to the mod or who didn't frequent the forums may not realize that Marathon or Snail was the "Normal" for C2C. And I can't imagine Blitz or Quick being playable with their settings as is.

Well, an option would be to add something like (not recommended) to their displayed names.

 

[EldrinFal]

Well, an option would be to add something like (not recommended) to their displayed names.

Yeah, I just thought it would be cleaner to remove it if not being used. Better would be just to list "Recommended" next to Marathon or Snail.

And maybe instead of separate game speeds for the modified research or production speeds, we could put those as configuration options. "Slower Research" "Faster Production"

 

[AIAndy]

Yeah, I just thought it would be cleaner to remove it if not being used.

Unfortunately removing changes the IDs that the game speed in the save game has. There are remappings for some of the IDs but not sure if one is there for game speed. So in case of doubt, better don't remove.

 

[EldrinFal]

Unfortunately removing changes the IDs that the game speed in the save game has. There are remappings for some of the IDs but not sure if one is there for game speed. So in case of doubt, better don't remove.

Got it.

 

[Koshling]

Unfortunately removing changes the IDs that the game speed in the save game has. There are remappings for some of the IDs but not sure if one is there for game speed. So in case of doubt, better don't remove.

Nope, there isn't currently

 

[EldrinFal]

Geez, even the number of turns is inconsistent.

Normal 1047
Epic 3075
Marathon 4000
Snail 9900
Eternity 14448

I really want to revamp this whole game speed xml

 

[JosEPh_II]

On Eternity with 14,448 turns, do you spend a lot of time just clicking End Of Turn? Or the same even with Snail?

JosEPh

 

[Questdog]

On Eternity with 14,448 turns, do you spend a lot of time just clicking End Of Turn? Or the same even with Snail?

JosEPh

Eternity is way too fast. Teching every 6 turns in Ancient Era is not my idea of eternity. The quick and simple solution is just to raise the research modifier. The problem however is that the early techs really don't need to be slowed down very much. So the perfect solution is to raise the research modifier and lower the cost of the early techs to compensate.

 

[EldrinFal]

Eternity is way too fast. Teching every 6 turns in Ancient Era is not my idea of eternity. The quick and simple solution is just to raise the research modifier. The problem however is that the early techs really don't need to be slowed down very much. So the perfect solution is to raise the research modifier and lower the cost of the early techs to compensate.

There is actually an Era modifier AND a Game Speed modifier to all that, so it will be best facilitated that way. Currently I am looking to try and make the GameSpeed proportional. Seems the best feedback is from Snail, so I'm looking at the ratios there.

 

[Questdog]

I'm currently playing a game with 2000 research modifier in Eternity and it sure feels like eternity.....

Started out with 3000, but some of the early techs would take 100 turns. We'll see what it looks like when we expand and hit the Ancient Era. I am aiming to have 15-20 turns per tech at Eternity.

I mean, this is the slowest speed and it should FEEL like it.....

 

[Necratoid]

Okay... I'm going to demand/request all the people complaining eternity is too short a game by speed and the average tech takes 6 turns explain what their person skill level is set on, asuming custom games. I'm playing on nobel (though I've managed to beat a game so I'm thinking a skill level upgraded is soon needed) for everyone and as a booster Leader I can't average out at that speed. Sure If I bulldoze through things and skip all the military only techs until way later I could pull that off. They get to that level of researched later and I can mostly do that... but that means my defenses are level 1 swarm tactics. Which kills actual building of buildings speed. For me its closer to 8-10 a tech, with a Leader. Some techs being more like 15-20... some in the 30s or 40s. Construction being the most blatent for me.

In short, you may need to add modifiers for the average starting power teir of the Civs... human and AI. AIs getting a bigger bonus to at that level then the human players or like adjustments.

---

Back to the building issue... basically the same thing I said before only with buildings instead of techs. If you built some or all of the buildings being obsoleted it (the lastest on that building tree(s) only) should speed up the replacement buildings. Several buildings on different paths rolled into the new one even greater bonuses. Perhaps some future, relative to the tech granting that building's construction speed, techs should add speed to old buiildings. Things like that.

So a list of the ideas to increase building speed:

1) Make certain buildings change their bonuses via civics. Some buildings are apparently taking up realistate until a civic is put back into use. Vaguely disturbing it is the number of derilict/reminder of past age buildings involved in this. For example, the Conscription building and Recruitment Center are the same physical building repurposed. Its a matter of red tape to switch between them and that should be part of the lag anarchy causes between civics. Look at all civic reliant buildings and make them more generic, with civics specific bonuses.

2) Reward the Civ for having built the now outdated tech by adding a bonus to making the next rev up. Your upgrading and can use the old building until its replacement is done. Particularly with the huts. Your actually using the old housing and demolishing them only after a new place in built. You can use the old production buildings to help construct their replacements.

3) Make it so huts, subburbs, palaces, highrise and such will automatically upgrade themselves... though a temporary and/or negative may kick in to cover the cost. Much like with terrain improvements like mines.

4) Make roads get a building bonus for the highest level road already built on the square. cartpath/mud path/road should grant an easier build time with mudpath/road/paved road as more and more of the ground work is there. Same with the railroad upgrades.

 

[Questdog]

I usually play on Emperor difficulty, but I am currently playing a game on Monarch with 40 civs on a Gigantic map.

I definitely don't want to speed building up (or slow it down, for that matter). Playing Eternity SHOULD be slow. It's ETERNITY for heaven's sake.

I NEVER beeline to anything. I always handicap myself in one of two ways (depending on my mood at the start of a game). I either force myself to research the cheapest tech or I force myself to research all the techs in a row, before I move on to the next row (this is how I used to do it exclusively, but C2C has the unfortunate instance of a tech requiring a prerequisite that is further along the tree than itself).

Anyway, the point is that I do NOTHING to try to steamroll through techs. In the Ancient Era every tech took me 6 turns to research (except for 1 or two that took fewer turns). There is nothing wrong with playing a game where you get a tech every 5 or 6 turns if that is the way you want it. However, we are talking about the SLOWEST option available and I don't think anyone can say that 6 turns a tech in the Ancient Era (or 8-10 for that matter) is all that slow. In Vanilla Civ, on Marathon, I think it is 40 turns for a tech in Ancient Era.

 

[rightfuture]

Throughout other mod threads, I occasionally run across the desire for accurate passage of time, maybe months for years, or direct years for the passage of time (especially through realism mods). Maybe work could be done to do either, or a graduated (stepped down) combination of them for different time frames. Realistic ones could be an experiment?

 

[EldrinFal]

Throughout other mod threads, I occasionally run across the desire for accurate passage of time, maybe months for years, or direct years for the passage of time (especially through realism mods). Maybe work could be done to do either, or a graduated (stepped down) combination of them for different time frames. Realistic ones could be an experiment?

I'm not sure how you would figure out what the realistic gradation would be.

The issue is that the proportionality is all out of whack between the game speeds. On average, it appears to follow: x1.5, x3, x6, x9 or in another sense Epic is 50% slower than Normal, Marathon is twice as slow as Epic, Snail is twice as slow as Marathon, and Eternity is 50% slower than Snail.

However, many variables don't follow that pattern. City growth and Culture might be twice as slow for example, but Research is 1.8 times slower, unit building 1.6, plot building 1.4 times, etc.

Even total turns in the game don't increase at any standard pattern. For example, most of Marathon's values are double (x2) Epic's (meaning twice as slow, as mentioned), but the turn difference is only x1.3. Between Marathon and Snail, most values are again x2, but the turn difference is x2.48. So some speeds "rob" the game/player of the number of turns there should be, and some grant too many.

Anyhow, now that I've gotten a revised Neanderthal spawn pushed, I'm going to take a look at the GameSpeed document and work out some balanced numbers. I'd actually like to adjust the total turns and increments, but I think that will break save games.