C2C Graphics

Thunderbrd · Oct 4, 2015

I'm a bit confused too. Perhaps it has something to do with the definition of a Sea (it's an enclosed portion of water that touches the ocean so is not quite a lake in general term usage but some have used Sea to mean Oceans as well so I'm not sure if it's intended to differ from Oceans here or replace them or not.)

I need to understand this better. Coast is the term that will always be used in the tiles that border the land right? Are we not keeping the Polar/standard/Tropical layout that has already been useful for many purposes as is? Would this not mean that we would not just need what we have now which is:

TERRAIN_POLAR_COAST
TERRAIN_COAST
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_COAST
TERRAIN_POLAR_OCEAN
TERRAIN_OCEAN
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_OCEAN
TERRAIN_SEA
TERRAIN_DEEP_COAST
TERRAIN_DEEP_SEA
TERRAIN_CONT_SHELF
TERRAIN_TRENCH
TERRAIN_LAKE_SHORE
TERRAIN_LAKE

But rather:
TERRAIN_POLAR_COAST
TERRAIN_COAST
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_COAST

TERRAIN_POLAR_OCEAN
TERRAIN_OCEAN
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_OCEAN

TERRAIN_POLAR_SEA
TERRAIN_SEA
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_SEA

TERRAIN_POLAR_DEEP_COAST
TERRAIN_DEEP_COAST
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_DEEP_COAST

TERRAIN_POLAR_DEEP_SEA
TERRAIN_DEEP_SEA
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_DEEP_SEA

TERRAIN_POLAR_CONT_SHELF
TERRAIN_CONT_SHELF
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_CONT_SHELF

TERRAIN_POLAR_TRENCH
TERRAIN_TRENCH
TERRAIN_TROPICAL_TRENCH

TERRAIN_LAKE_SHORE
TERRAIN_LAKE

And again, I'm not sure what 'SEA' is supposed to denote but it would be cool if we did actually have Seas as terrains. Could be useful.

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

Thunderbrd said:
I'm a bit confused too. Perhaps it has something to do with the definition of a Sea (it's an enclosed portion of water that touches the ocean so is not quite a lake in general term usage but some have used Sea to mean Oceans as well so I'm not sure if it's intended to differ from Oceans here or replace them or not.)

We needed to define a terrain that was always two tiles from land for game-play purposes; so we decided to call this tile "Sea". Nothing is stopping custom maps from using them further off shore but it may be complicated to get map-scripts to do this right.

Thunderbrd said:
I need to understand this better. 1. Coast is the term that will always be used in the tiles that border the land right? 2. Are we not keeping the Polar/standard/Tropical layout that has already been useful for many purposes as is? 3. Would this not mean that we would not just need what we have now which is:

1. Yes.
2. At least for coasts as it fills a graphical role to separate them.
3. I think the climate separation of other water terrains should only be done if it fills a purpose. I would need to know what purpose for example polar and tropical ocean fills, that cannot be filled by latitude instead, to give my answer to this last question.
We do not have climate differentiated Trench, Cont. Shelf, Sea, Deep Sea or Deep Coast at the moment.

P.S.
Neanderthal sailing:

Spoiler :

Perhaps Neanderthal culture should unlock the earliest type of water unit? We could call it Dugout and make it only require controlled fire, Hard Hammer Percussion and Neanderthal culture.

Thunderbrd · Oct 4, 2015

One example for the need for polar/standard/tropical:

Code:

<FeatureInfo>
			<Type>FEATURE_ICE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_FEATURE_ICE</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_FEATURE_ICE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_FEATURE_ICE</ArtDefineTag>
			<YieldChanges/>
			<RiverYieldChange/>
			<HillsYieldChange/>
			<iMovement>3</iMovement>
			<iSeeThrough>0</iSeeThrough>
			<iHealthPercent>0</iHealthPercent>
			<iDefense>0</iDefense>
			<iAppearance>0</iAppearance>
			<iDisappearance>0</iDisappearance>
			<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
			<iTurnDamage>0</iTurnDamage>
			<iWarmingDefense>1</iWarmingDefense>
			<bNoCoast>0</bNoCoast>
			<bNoRiver>0</bNoRiver>
			<bNoAdjacent>0</bNoAdjacent>
			<bRequiresFlatlands>0</bRequiresFlatlands>
			<bRequiresRiver>0</bRequiresRiver>
			<bAddsFreshWater>1</bAddsFreshWater>
			<bImpassable>1</bImpassable>
			<bNoCity>0</bNoCity>
			<bNoImprovement>0</bNoImprovement>
			<bVisibleAlways>0</bVisibleAlways>
			<bNukeImmune>0</bNukeImmune>
			<OnUnitChangeTo/>
			<TerrainBooleans>
				<TerrainBoolean>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_COAST</TerrainType>
					<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
				</TerrainBoolean>
				<TerrainBoolean>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_OCEAN</TerrainType>
					<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
				</TerrainBoolean>
				<TerrainBoolean>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_POLAR_COAST</TerrainType>
					<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
				</TerrainBoolean>
				<TerrainBoolean>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_POLAR_OCEAN</TerrainType>
					<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
				</TerrainBoolean>

I believe Ocean and Coast were only maintained in this scheme here so as to keep from conflicting with earlier un-updated mapscripts when this was initially implemented. At this point I THINK we should be looking at ONLY allowing Ice in Polar waters.

Other functions include spawns and terrain feature enabling. For example, there are tropical water tile features and arctic water tile features. Most of these only work with the coast anyhow.

Plus... where exactly does the continental shelf fit in? Is that role filled fully by the 'Sea' or what? I'm not sure I understand the design concept fully where that terrain is concerned.

So, to make this clear for me, Sea is intended to be always 2 spaces out from land and you mean for early ships to make use of Sea? Perhaps we could make that even more interesting where the earliest ships can't but mid-age wooden ships certainly could...

Another thing to be clear on (so that I can be sure of what I'm doing with combat classes on naval units and movement rules) all water tiles have a base cost of 2 right?

Redwallzyl · Oct 4, 2015

I second having an tile that is supposed to be coastal have coast in its name. way less confusing that way. it seems like you went for sea equaling tropical sea which is fine but I think it should be labeled that way as well.

also i made an example comparison using the Mediterranean on my map to see how various combinations look like. i like the sea texture as coast though if it could use the sandy beach it would be perfect. have a beach for deep sea coat as well if you make it and more blue like the sea tile.

Spoiler :

so basically "Sea" should be representing a tropical coastal sea like the med or Caribbean with deep sea being the deeper parts of it and either deep coast or preferably a deep sea coast with a sand beach.

i think that deep coast, coast and shelf can represent all other features such as the more polar Hudson bay with coast shelf. and an inland sea such as the black sea with deep coast and coast. an additional tile seems redundant for them. anyway good work. :goodjob:

so here is my idealized list as a map maker.

polar/normal/tropical Coast- marks shallower early navigable areas along coasts.

deep polar/normal/tropical Coast- marks deeper (sometimes drops to continental shelf level) and less navigable areas along coasts.

Shelf- continental shelf boundaries out further than coasts. controls resource placement limits. marks next step in navigation after deep coasts. can also represent shallower enclosed water tiles not next to land.

Tropical Sea Coast- tropical sea different looking from ocean like the Caribbean and Mediterranean. can have coral

Tropical Deep Sea Coast- deeper section of tropical sea same navigation level as normal deep coast.

Tropical Deep Sea section of sea not connected to land and same navigation level as shelf.

Tropical Sea- shallower sea not connected to land. same navigation level as deep coast. can have coral

Salt lake- salty version of inland lake can have salt plane tile graphic around it.

Lake normal/coast- large freshwater lake.

Ocean polar/normal/tropical- normal ocean. navigable after all others.

Trench- treated the same as ocean. represents oceanic trenches. could have special rare resource or special use.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 4, 2015

There are three things we are trying to show here:-

1. Navigation, surface ship movement

1.1 Coast, earliest travel, insight of land
1.2 Sea, need mast so can see land from further out
1.3 Ocean, navigate by stars

Note this does not cater for navigation based on non-stellar indicators such as the swell direction in the Pacific etc.

2. Depth for allowing improvements and submarine travel

2.1 nothing indicates normal depth ie continental shelf for coast and sea, abysmal plains in oceans
2.2 Deep for not continental shelf on coast and sea
2.3 trench for very deep everywhere

3. Animal Spawn

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

Thunderbrd said:

One example for the need for polar/standard/tropical:

Spoiler :

But I've never seen ice generated on non-polar coast/ocean; so I'm guessing it is restricted by latitude already. So it would only need TERRAIN_OCEAN (If we were to remove tropical and polar ocean. If not: TERRAIN_POLAR_OCEAN), TERRAIN_POLAR_COAST and TERRAIN_DEEP_COAST

Thunderbrd said:
Other functions include spawns and terrain feature enabling. For example, there are tropical water tile features and arctic water tile features. Most of these only work with the coast anyhow.

Could we not restrict them by latitude instead?

Thunderbrd said:
Plus... where exactly does the continental shelf fit in? Is that role filled fully by the 'Sea' or what? I'm not sure I understand the design concept fully where that terrain is concerned.

It is shallow water that is 3 or more tiles from land. It would function as sea where movement rules are concerned as shallow water equals less dangerous maritime weathers. continental shelf should not connect new world with old world.

Thunderbrd said:
So, to make this clear for me, Sea is intended to be always 2 spaces out from land and you mean for early ships to make use of Sea? Perhaps we could make that even more interesting where the earliest ships can't but mid-age wooden ships certainly could...

Yes, it was DH's Idea, and I just commited to SVN some movement rule suggestions for the new terrains.

Thunderbrd said:
Another thing to be clear on (so that I can be sure of what I'm doing with combat classes on naval units and movement rules) all water tiles have a base cost of 2 right?

Seems reasonable but I'm not really sure, so I'll let you decide on this matter.

JosEPh_II · Oct 4, 2015

@Toffer,

Some screenshots for you. Seas, coast, and grid lines, in water still fat and see thru not distinct like on land.

JosEPh

Thunderbrd · Oct 4, 2015

I noticed your last commit Toffer took care of some things I was concerned about.

Other XML files that are affected:
CIV4PromotionInfos.xml
CIV4PropertyInfos.xml
Crocodiles_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
Subdue_Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
NaturalWonder_CIV4FeatureInfos.xml
Cultural_Heritage_CIV4PromotionInfos.xml (not sure this is actually in use at all)
CIV4EventTriggerInfos.xml
CIV4TechInfos.xml
CIV4BonusInfos.xml
CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml
Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
CIV4SpawnInfos.xml
CIV4FeatureInfos.xml

I would've also thought some buildings like the Colossus and Maoui Statues might've had some tag uses that may need updating as well. Not sure.

Quite a bit to go through there. I've also got some edits in mind to the combat class double movement tag uses so I'll have to go through that with some care.

EDIT: Just saw your last post.

Ok, so you may be right about ice and spawns. However, what about features like sea kelp and coral? Bonus placement? I'm not sure it's as easily done with those.

And yes, generally speaking all water tiles should have a base movement of 2.

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

Redwallzyl said:
I second having an tile that is supposed to be coastal have coast in its name. way less confusing that way. it seems like you went for sea equaling tropical sea which is fine but I think it should be labeled that way as well.

I went for: sea is indifferent to latitude.
Should I make it less cyan/more blue?

Redwallzyl said:
also i made an example comparison using the Mediterranean on my map to see how various combinations look like. i like the sea texture as coast though if it could use the sandy beach it would be perfect. have a beach for deep sea coat as well if you make it and more blue like the sea tile.

Spoiler :

so basically "Sea" should be representing a tropical coastal sea like the med or Caribbean with deep sea being the deeper parts of it and either deep coast or preferably a deep sea coast with a sand beach.

Technically difficult to give sea a sandy beach, but possible to make a far less detailed beach than what coast currently have. But I would rather turn it around and give coastal tiles sea texture in water and a much less detailed sandy beach than they currently have. For now I won't do neither though.

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
@Toffer,

Some screenshots for you. Seas, coast, and grid lines, in water still fat and see thru not distinct like on land.

JosEPh

I know, is it a big problem?

The reason it is like this is because i reduced the texture size by half for water tiles compared to those for land. 680KB to 130KB per texture.

The grid has to be two pixels wide no matter the resolution of the texture which means the grid will double in size for every time I halve the resolution of textures they are supposed to cover. I let them blur out because I thought it would look less intrusive width the double width.

Edit: for most of the water textures I reduced the resolution from 512x1024 to 128x256; resulting in 4 times wider grid lines. 680KB to 43KB
The ones I only halved are Sea, Sea Deep, and Cont. Shelf

JosEPh_II · Oct 4, 2015

Just wanted to make sure yu were aware. I can live with the grid lines. The white sea coast is...um...glaring?!

JosEPh

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
Just wanted to make sure yu were aware. I can live with the grid lines.

Good.

JosEPh_II said:
The white sea coast is...um...glaring?!

This I can fix.

The brightness of the blend texture affects the light reflecting factor of the detail texture. Right now coast have a perfect grey 50% Black/White blend texture.

Harrier · Oct 4, 2015

Harrier said:
Looking at the Sevopedia, I would guess;

Coast - Sea - Ocean or Shelf - Ocean. (only 1 Sea tile like coast.)

Coast - Shelf - Ocean

Deep Coast - Deep Sea -Ocean or Trench - Ocean.

Quoting my original post with more info on my thoughts.

Most common:

Coast - Sea - Ocean.
Deep Coast - Deep Sea - Ocean.

Trenches tend to be in volcanic or previously volcanic areas. So:

Coast - Sea - Ocean - Trench - Ocean.
Deep Coast - Deep Sea - Ocean- Trench - Ocean.

Continental shelves are almost coastal. (the depth only increases by 1% gradient) So can be shallower than a sea.

They can also appear in oceans and if water levels decreased Islands would appear. So:

Coast - Sea - Shelf (1 or more) - Ocean.
Coast -Shelf (1 or more) - Ocean. (no need for Sea as the shelf gets bigger it gets deeper.)

These are my proposals.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 4, 2015

Toffer90 said:
But I've never seen ice generated on non-polar coast/ocean; so I'm guessing it is restricted by latitude already. So it would only need TERRAIN_OCEAN (If we were to remove tropical and polar ocean. If not: TERRAIN_POLAR_OCEAN), TERRAIN_POLAR_COAST and TERRAIN_DEEP_COAST

Could we not restrict them by latitude instead?

Animal spawns require Polar/Temperate/Tropical Coast/Ocean.

Latitude restriction would not be useful as we were thinking of having currents so that there would not be a straight line as polar coast may extend towards the equator as far as habitat is concerned.

Toffer90 said:
It is shallow water that is 3 or more tiles from land. It would function as sea where movement rules are concerned as shallow water equals less dangerous maritime weathers. continental shelf should not connect new world with old world.

Shallow water more than 3 plots from land is just as dangerous as deep water 3 plots from land and should have no effect on the technology needed to navigate it.

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

Harrier said:
Quoting my original post with more info on my thoughts.

Most common:

Coast - Sea - Ocean.
Deep Coast - Deep Sea - Ocean.

Trenches tend to be in volcanic or previously volcanic areas. So:

Coast - Sea - Ocean - Trench - Ocean.
Deep Coast - Deep Sea - Ocean- Trench - Ocean.

Continental shelves are almost coastal. (the depth only increases by 1% gradient) So can be shallower than a sea.

They can also appear in oceans and if water levels decreased Islands would appear. So:

Coast - Sea - Shelf (1 or more) - Ocean.
Coast -Shelf (1 or more) - Ocean. (no need for Sea as the shelf gets bigger it gets deeper.)

These are my proposals.

To clarify:
Sea and coast is just special continental shelf tiles.
Deep coast and deep sea is just special ocean tiles.

What makes them special is the distance from land.

Toffer90 · Oct 4, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Animal spawns require Polar/Temperate/Tropical Coast/Ocean.

Latitude restriction would not be useful as we were thinking of having currents so that there would not be a straight line as polar coast may extend towards the equator as far as habitat is concerned.

Ok, I'm convinced that we need polar and tropical ocean after all.

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Shallow water more than 3 plots from land is just as dangerous as deep water 3 plots from land and should have no effect on the technology needed to navigate it.

You are probably right.

I will fix it right away.

Toffer90 · Oct 5, 2015

@Sparth: Regarding goody islands; there seems to be no way to get the asset the render below the water surface.
I can make the island texture transparent at the edges like so:

But it wont look as good as if it were actually under water.

Features like Ice are capable of underwater rendering as seen in the picture; why, I don't know, its nif reveals nothing that would differentiate it from other models in this regard.

Units can render under water if a unitinfo tag is used <bRenderBelowWater>1</bRenderBelowWater>.

Even vanilla improvements like the fishing boat can't render underwater and its net that looks like its underwater is actually floating well above the surface (an optical illusion that is not easy to recreate for an island.

If anyone could look into how <bRenderBelowWater> works in the dll and assess if it could be replicated for improvements; then we could do some cool stuff for water assets.

Sparth · Oct 5, 2015

Toffer90 said:
@Sparth: Regarding goody islands; there seems to be no way to get the asset the render below the water surface.

Much better now

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 5, 2015

The new water terrains are not working well with Questdog's alternate terrains. They are bleeding into each other in areas. Besides which the high contrast is making me ill.

This is an existing game which means there are no seas and coasts border oceans.

Raven Destroyer · Oct 5, 2015

I guess my eyes are much different, Beside the Stone Hill Corner I cannot see any problems,
What i did with my Current game was go to the Editor and added a border of Continental Shelf around the Coasts (I Assume I'm not causing Problems doing such)

I must say the Coasts could get a Tad more towards Cyan/Greenish/Blueish, the Artic Coast is good, but the Rest idk, Might just be my Personal taste,
Just Gather people's Responses about it, I'm quite happy with the Changes, (though Existing Games Might be better off if you use the World Editor if one can resist the dark side to enhance the Coasts appearance)

I Did notice Some of the Terrains Bleed into each other making things weird to look at, But that's something you should just test for yourself

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