1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

C2C: Promotions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by ls612, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    26,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Is it not enough to be able to use NotOnDomainType on the promotionline?
    Code:
       <NotOnDomainTypes>
        <DomainType>DOMAIN_AIR</DomainType>
        <DomainType>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainType>
       </NotOnDomainTypes>
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,487
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Looking at the terrain promotions we have inconsistent sets. We have some which increase defense, attack and movement on some sets while on others we have that plus another for movement and some increase subdue animal chance while others don't. Further the subdue animal chance is not stored on the promotion but on the Outcome. I'll put a summary of these up soon with some suggestions to change them. Here is a sample

    Promotion Line Promotion Terrain Combat Movement Requires
    Warmth
    Desert Combat I Desert +20% attack; +50% defense - Combat I
    Desert Combat II Dunes +20% attack; +50% defense double in Dunes Desert Combat I
    Desert Combat III Salt Flats +20% attack; +50% defense double in Salt Flats Desert Combat II
    Field
    Fieldsman I Grassland and Plains +15% Defense Double Movement in Grassland Combat II
    Fieldsman II Grassland and Plains +15% Attack Double Movement in Plains Fieldsman I
    Fieldsman III Grassland and Plains +20% Attack and Defense - Fieldsman II
    Guerilla
    Guerilla I Hills and Peaks 25% Defense (subdue animals +2%) None
    Guerilla II Hills and Peaks 25% Defense (subdue animals +2%) Guerilla I
    Guerilla III Hills and Peaks 25% Defense (subdue animals +2%) Guerilla II
    None
    Hillsman Hills and Peaks - Double movement in Hills and Peaks Combat II


    As you can see Warmth and Fieldsman have attack, defense and movement but not all the like terrains. While Guerilla has the Defense only while Hillsman has the movement for those terrains. Guerilla also has improved chance to subdue animals.

    This needs to be made a bit more regular in my view.

    Also I want to allow them to the different combat lines at differing stages. For example I would like the improved movement to be available to recon earlier than to hunters and others and the improved defense and attack to be available to hunters earlier than recon and others. I think I will need two new Combat equivalent lines one for hunters and one for recon, neither anyway a s near as strong as the normal Combat line and I may be able to get away with just the one level as we don't want either of these groups to be strong in battle.
     
  3. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location:
    Norway
    @ DH: I've made quite a few changes to streamline these promotionlines in my modmod, perhaps you should have a look.
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    26,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I've always thought so myself but never put the time into evaluating how to improve it. I think the all or nothing approach to adding one terrain type at a time with each tier on warmth and the one for the cold regions, and the ones for wet and dry regions are not the best way to go with those. Personally I believe the unit should benefit on all the terrains in that category at once with each step.

    So yeah, I'm totally in agreement that an overall review here is a good idea.

    I'm all for having a different line between military and explorers. In what way would you want them to vary between hunters and recon? That's interesting as well as long as you do see a solid cause to split things for them too. Here's one good reason:
    I would love it if you could infuse some pursuit by terrain on the hunter line and some withdrawal by terrain on the recon line - the tags exist for this so let me know if you need me to explain the syntax for them. (This would not make the entire promotion ForF dependent either... would just add some benefits if ForF is on.)
    Hunters and Recon maybe wouldn't get as strong for combat modifiers as those for combatants but might be quicker to get movement modifiers etc...

    Can you give us some concept of the adjustments you made?
     
  5. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location:
    Norway
    Promotion Line Promotion Terrain Combat Movement Requires
    Warmth
    Heat I All 3 +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +1%) Ignores Desert terrain damage Survival I
    Heat II All 3 +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +1%) Ignores Dune terrain damage DC I, Survival II
    Heat III All 3 +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +1%) Ignores Salt Flat terrain damage DC II, Survival III
    Field
    Fieldsman I Grassland and Plains +10% Attack and Defense - Combat II OR Drill I
    Fieldsman II Grassland and Plains +10% Attack and Defense - Fieldsman I
    Fieldsman III Grassland and Plains +20% Attack and Defense - Fieldsman II
    Guerilla
    Guerilla I - +50% Early withdrawal +5% Capture probability&resistance Combat III OR Survival III
    Guerilla II - +10% withdrawal, +1 Stealth strike +5% Capture probability&resistance Guerilla I
    Guerilla III - +1 Camouflage invisibility, +1 Stealth strike +5% Capture probability&resistance Guerilla II
    Hillsman
    Hillsman I Hills and Peaks +10% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Combat II OR Survival II
    Hillsman II Hills and Peaks +10% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Hillsman I
    Hillsman III Hills and Peaks +20% attack, +10% Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Hillsman II
    Woodsman
    Woodsman I New/Old/Burnt/regular Forest, Bamboo, Jungle +10% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Combat II OR Survival II
    Woodsman II New/Old/Burnt/regular Forest, Bamboo, Jungle +10% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Woodsman I
    Woodsman III New/Old/Burnt/regular Forest, Bamboo, Jungle +20% attack, +10% Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Woodsman II
    Wetland
    Wetland Combat I Lush, Muddy, Marsh +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Combat I OR Survival I
    Wetland Combat II Lush, Muddy, Marsh +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) Ignores Marsh terrain damage Wetland Combat I
    Wetland Combat III Lush, Muddy, Marsh +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Wetland Combat II
    Rugged
    Rugged Combat I Barren, Scrub, Rocky +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Combat I OR Survival I
    Rugged Combat II Barren, Scrub, Rocky +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Rugged Combat I
    Rugged Combat III Barren, Scrub, Rocky +15% attack and Defense (subdue animals +2%) - Rugged Combat II
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    26,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I noticed the progression on some is 10/10/20 whereas others is 15/15/15. What determined the different approach? And how would it better to take +10% attack and defense on plains vs +10% combat modifier (as in the foundational generic promotion value selection, Combat I)?

    I do like a lot of what I'm seeing there though.
     
  7. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location:
    Norway
    Woodsman and hillsman are applicable to a lot more plots than wetland, warmth and rugged, therefore woddsman and hillsman give a total of 40% attack and 30% defense while wetland, rugged and heat gives 45% attack and 45% defense.

    Combat I = 5% attack and defense - (subdue animals -2%)
    Combat II = 8 % attack and defense - (subdue animals -2%)
    Combat III = 12% attack and defense - (subdue animals -2%) - requires lv.5
    combat IV = 14% attack and defense - (subdue animals -2%)
    combat V = 16% attack and defense - (subdue animals -3%) - requires lv.10
    Combat VI = 20% attack and defense - (subdue animals -4%)
    Total = 75% attack and defense - (subdue animals -15%)

    Fieldsman may have to be 15 - 15 - 15 too so it surpass combat III - V.
    If only Drill I was required 10 - 10 - 20 would be fine as it surpass combat I - III.

    I don't really like the fieldsman promotionline as I think it should really apply to all tiles that doesn't have forest/bamboo/jungle, that's why I haven't really put too much thought into it until you questioning me about this today.
    The level requirement in the combat line is not implemented in the modmod yet, but your question made me think it necessary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    26,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    This says everything I really was asking. You recalibrated the base amount to half the normal core amount.
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,487
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    I would rather that all these promotions be available to Explorers = Hunters and Recon but I would not require the Combat line as I would like Explorers to only be able to get 1-3 at most. I am not familiar with the Survival line which I assume is in Toffer90's modmod as I can't see it in the pedia.

    We are limited to one AND and two OR promotion prerequisites which gives us "A", "A and B", "A or B" and "A and (B or C)".

    There should be up to 3 different things we are looking at here "Attack and Defense", Movement and Terrain Damage. Given how many promotions units get in C2C I think we should have one line for each. Further more capture and subdue animals should not be on any of them. In fact we already have a set of Terrain Damage promotions that could be reused as currently they are only for Subdued Animals.

    Terrain Attack and Defense

    I agree with TB that all levels should affect all terrains in the group. When some of these were first built you could only have one terrain in the XML. This is no longer the case.

    I feel that these should be available at Combat II or Hunter I to reflect the nature of hunters.​

    Terrain Movement
    Currently we have two single promotions concerning movement in terrain.
    Promotion Line Promotion Terrain Combat Double Movement Requires
    None
    Forestry Jungle, Bamboo, Forrest (all 4) - Jungle, Bamboo, Forrest (all 4) Combat II
    Hillsman Hills and Peaks - Hills and Peaks Combat II

    I am suggesting we make one more for each terrain and terrain feature set. It should require a second level promotion, Combat II for most units, but Recon units can get it earlier even if we just have all Recon units start with a nothing promotion to achieve it. This reflects the nature of recon.​

    Terrain Damage

    Since this is optional I think the promotions should also be optional so that if "No Terrain Damage" is selected then the promotions wont appear in game. Reefs and Coral Reefs should also follow this.

    I think there need only be one of these for each damaging terrain (or terrain set) and it should be available from the first Terrain Attack and Defense or Terrain Movement promotion that contain the terrain.​

    Initial unit promotions
    For this purpose I am thinking of the Initial Military Promotions; Star Signs and Religion Promotions.

    The Initial Military Promotions are those that a unit learns "at their grandparent's knee" which are only assigned under some civics. Units may get zero or more based on the terrain about the city they are built.

    Initial Military Promotion Terrain Combat
    Bushman Barren, Rocky, Scrub, Salt Flats, Marsh +10% attack and defense
    Cliff Walker Hills, Peak +10% attack and defense
    Green Warden Jungle, Bamboo, Forrest (all 4) +10% attack and defense
    Sand Devil Desert, Dunes +10% attack and defense Need to add Salt Flats
    Winter Born Ice, Tundra, Taiga +10% attack and defense
    Sailor Reef, Coral Reef ?? New to replace existing possibly movement?


    We can't use Defense in terrain that damages because the automate ai will have the units sit there defending until they die from the damage. This is especially true with domain_ocean units.

    I think we can ignore the Star Sign and Religion promotions this.​
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    26,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Those are three elements to consider but I don't think they should be split into 3 different sets. I already am reluctant to take even the packed full of benefits terrain promos we have because they are so limited as to when they do and when they don't benefit the unit. My explorers are usually far ranging and I never know what kind of terrain they'll be in usually. When I'm playing with terrain damage on I do tend to select them more often so this IS a motivator. Thus taking off terrain damage entirely may not be good. I do want to eventually make terrain damage a little more intricate, where different terrains damage to differing extents and promotion tags to reduce and resist terrain damage rather than eliminate outright. Thus eventually they could be redesigned to gradually improve on terrain damage resistance - by type such as cold or warm or rugged (for ships.) In the meantime as far as terrain damage reduction is considered, the way those are tiered makes sense on the cold and warm promos at least.

    The Movement factor has been separated out already and has a prereq of Combat II which I think is absolutely ridiculous as they should, imo, be requiring one or two promos in their terrain lines rather than having any relationship to the raw generic Combat promos.

    As for capture and subdue, I'd prefer to see the promotion that looks like a loop trap get a lot more subdue animal chance and we can take that out of the max subdue count from these promos. I agree that subdue animals is too generic a benefit for a terrain promo since you can't specify only subdual during combat on such a terrain.

    I could agree with that.
    I'd have these require the 1st level of the terrain promo (which will already then require Combat II if you aren't a Hunter which can get it as soon as it has a hunter promo which is right away for the most part). I love an alternative version for Recon (land recon) where they can get it right out of the gate. That would really help to give more distinct flavor to scouting units! Agreed!
    10% is not enough. As stated earlier, 10% combat modifier anywhere and everywhere establishes the flat base value of a promotion for the core mod entirely. If you want these to be selectable, double that amount if it's going to get nothing else and maybe 15% if it comes with other benefits. You can also increase them a bit as you go as that's a common C2C method to promote specialization of unit roles. But you'll never have the AI selecting these promos if they only get 10% on the first rung.

    We should also give some units a flatlands promo. Some riders would use open territory to tremendous advantage, as would chariots. Then you have Llamas and such that should get special promos for hills/peaks that are more beneficial than the standard line.
    This is ONLY true for ocean units because the damage is not from terrain it's from a feature and whomever programmed feature damage didn't quite do it right. I thought I had fixed this though. Is it still happening now? I know there were a few more things that should be done differently with feature damage in general.
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,487
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    1. I only use the terrain Attack/Defense promotions on my hunters. I can see no benefit in wasting exp on them for units that are going to be in stacks as you have to give them to all units in the stack. I play with limited units so it is easy to know which places they are best at hunting. In fact I would be quite OK with limiting those promotion lines to just explorers, mostly because some are not suitable at all for some units eg wheeled in swamp or dunes or on glaciers (ice).

    2. After a very brief period at the start of the game I can see no use for any Recon units as they are currently Defined.

      What I was suggesting was that the movement promotions require Combat II OR Recon I; if only to give some use to Recon units. I have not defined what Recon I does or even if there is a Recon II but I expect that they will be similar to the Sentry and Hunting Sight promotions. Naturally Recon and Hunters would not be able to also get the Sentry promotions.

      Currently only 2 movement are separate from the terrain attack/defense promotion lines and that is with the ones that came with BtS ie hills and trees.

    3. I can see an argument to require the terrain movement promotion before getting the second or third terrain Attack/Defense promotion but not the argument for requiring the first Attack/Defense promotion for Movement.

    4. I have not yet finished fleshing out the changes to Hunter and Capture lines but I did intend to add subdue to the Capture line. I have no idea as to what use the Hunting Strike promotion line is.

    5. Initial Military Promotions are supposed to be just that, something the members of the new unit learnt before they were trained. They are not selected by anyone they are free, local and only apply under two Civics at the moment.

      This is why a new unit may get 0, 1, 2 or more of them and why they are set so low. They have not been fully updated for C2C terrains but were supposed to match the Terrain Attack/Defense in structure. Except that can't be used for sea units so currently they get 0, 1 or 2 of the Coastal Attack/Defense line.

      Yes sea units are still hiding in reefs to get the defense boost.

    6. I still have to go through the buildings to see which promotions are given free from which building.
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    26,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    You certainly don't need to give them to all units in the stack. If you are attacking a tile with that terrain/feature then the unit that is attacking gets the benefit if he has the promo. If you are defending, then if the unit defending has the promo then it get's the defense benefit if it correlates to the terrain/feature he's standing on. Only one unit ever attacks or defends at a time. Even in stack attack situations, it's still just an automated series of attacks, not a homogenized blend of all units in battle at once.

    I often have a couple of forest defenders and hill defenders and sometimes others in my attack stacks so that they can take the lead in defending (the BEST defender in the stack is always the one to come up to defend unless the attacking unit has a special ability to target particular unit types or unitcombats, such as hunters and assassins have or a unit in the stack has the capacity to auto defend against a particular unit type or unitcombat, such as hunters have which is why they'll always take the hit first from an animal attack.)
    So if a defender is particularly good on a particular terrain, he's very likely to be the chosen stack defender until he's been too injured to continue being the best choice to continue defending (or he's killed.)

    You've made a couple points in here. First, I agree with your assessment on Recon except that they are intended to be decoy targets and they do play that role alright. But it's not enough for them imo so I agree in general with your first statement and like your proposal to solve it, even down to not needing a separate type of promotion but to give it an OR to an automatic promo given to many recon units. Giving recon enhanced vision capabilities should help. One thing I find is that recon is tough to get to level up so putting good power options on their initially selectable promotions is probably wise for them. I also don't have a problem with Recon being able to get a couple sources of enhanced vision range because they ARE so very difficult to get to levelup, particularly if you are spending your levels on promotions that aren't helping with combat.

    The problem I have is that movement promotions are being based on the Combat line as a whole. Combat shouldn't have anything to do with it, imo. Even for Combatants, unless you are basing the initial terrain combat promos on a level of the Combat promotionline and then the movement promos off those.

    You're suggesting as well that other terrain and feature types get their own doublemovement tag implementations that follow parrallel design structures as the forest and hill ones we have now and I think that would also be cool yes. Maybe even put a peak one in play that has a prereq of the hill double move one.

    I can see both. First, because movement enhancement is related to the proven familiarity with the terrain. Second, because terrain movement enhancement should not branch directly from general combat promotions but a terrain based combat modifying promo could and then it could show the gradient of development to go from there into movement. Plus it would make hoarding all the terrain movement promos a bit more difficult (unless you're a scout perhaps, or even a hunter.)

    It's for Stealth Combat bonuses which I don't blame you for being a little confused on. You'll see I have making stealth strikes more transparent as an item on my immediate debug/project list for pre-v37 release.
    To clarify, Stealth Strikes and Stealth Combat modifiers work exactly like first strikes and combat modifiers, except they come into play in specific situations:
    1) When you are attacking an opponent that doesn't see your unit.
    2) When you are stealth defending a tile (when an opponent doesn't see your unit and moves onto the tile anyhow but you have the stealth defense status engaged.)
    3) When attacking an opponent on the same tile using any of the 3 methods available to do so.(Arrest/Ambush/Assassinate)
    4) When defending in situation 1 or 3 but not when attacking in situation 2.

    If any of these 4 situations are occurring, first strikes possessed by either side are completely negated (because these represent distance attacks and these situations are immediate close combat scenarios.) General combat modifiers are not replaced but are additive to any stealth combat modifiers that are applicable in a stealth combat.

    The Hunting Strike promos represent the hunter's ability to strike lethally and true when taking his prey by surprise. They can truly be the most effective thing the hunter can develop, particularly on Hide and Seek if the hunter also works on developing his camo invisibility rating. It can translate into tremendous benefit to go Rambo on real military units once he gets strong enough with it.
    Sounds like something that would be better as coming from a line of specific hunting instruction buildings that work a little like your burial tradition buildings... pick only one in a given city to build and that's based on what terrains are in that city's radius at that to represent the hunting training grounds they picked up in their native areas.

    Clarifying that does make the % make sense then. And it sounds appropriate that way as well.
     
  13. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,487
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    The only problem I see with this one is the confusion it may cause with the meaning in vanilla and every other mod, but then C2C does that (causes confusion) anyway so no problem!

    I would assume this particular line would not be available to hunters and recon but would be mainly for freedom fighters, partisans and insurgents.
     
  14. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location:
    Norway
    @DH:
    It's really up to you.

    P.S.
    I chose, In my modmod, not to change who it's available to compared to the old guerilla promo found in c2c currently. I didn't see the harm in letting unitcombat_explorers get it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  15. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    2,608
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Leviathan II (and III even more so) for sea creatures is simply vandalism. How can you have a naval game at all when your battles all the way from ancient to renaissance will be decided by barb sharks? WTF?

    I know the name requires something pretty devastating, but these are only level 5/6 units. Maybe if Leviathan II required level 10, and III required 15, that would be the best fix.

    Hate to be so negative, my first post on return. Hope it goes without saying (because words fail me lol) how epicly, historically good this mod is.
     

Share This Page