Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Interesting observations. What difficulty level are you testing at?
C2C - UEM - Ultimate-Earth-Map 100% MOD and SVN update compatible by Pit2015
- Thread starter Pit2015
- Start date
Deity + Eternity + AI at deity in scenario. AI should be able to keep up better this way with research now, i will see it in some turns. Also the AI is using the 2 free trackers directly to hunt, for exploration and they also explore tribal villages now. Well they may loos there free trackers but if they come up with more research they can rebuild them. Same for the player. Important for the UEM scenario because the AI dont goes to hunt with the free military units, but the player will do. Also the AI will start to late to hunt and to explore, so the player gets mostly all natural wonders near him and tribal villages, now the AI goes to explore directly from start, so same chance for the AI and the player. AI should be better now.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I have been considering changing the requirement for myths and stories to the tech rather than to buildings that come with the tech. Giving the buildings free has other issues clouding the problem/solution.
Giving free units when those units can't be built normally seems a bit over powered to me. We can give free units at a tech discovered if you want. We do it with gatherers after all.
Having them appear far away from their home city seems just wrong. Why have the city start there if you are going to do that.
I wanted the initial restriction on movement through cultural areas changed to free passage through unworked tiles for reasons you are experiencing.
"I have been considering changing the requirement for myths and stories to the tech rather than to buildings that come with the tech. Giving the buildings free has other issues clouding the problem/solution."
Works for now, will still work if you change the need, thats low level buildings, its ok to give that to the AI for free in scenario, so its important the AI can start directly to build myths with it now, because they have free trackers and the two buildings. With your change the AI will not go hunting until they get trackers, the wanderers suck and die fast. A bit extra education is helping them also currently. Problem is as i said, player will go to hunt with its military units, the AI will stay within its borders, resulting in that the player has 30 myths in 400 turns and the AI has none because they dont have the buildings needed yet, or they dont have the hunter/tracker tech and tracker units. Player will research oral tradition early, AI will mostly research other stuff first. You can make the myth to go with no requirment, but for the scenario its ok to give all civs 2 free buildings. Many more benefits on these techs (Language and Oral Tradition), so AI will still research them.
"Having them appear far away from their home city seems just wrong. Why have the city start there if you are going to do that."
You mean the trackers? Only for blocked or island civs, so they have there trackers on a mainland, otherwise they cant hunt animals before they get ships... missing land mass = less animals spawning, so they be able to get some myths until they get ships to get new hunters from there island, they have been stranded and lost there canoe.
Also its only 2 trackers, thats ok."I wanted the initial restriction on movement through cultural areas changed to free passage through unworked tiles for reasons you are experiencing."
May work but will not work for island civs... if hunters can pass cultural borders will be ok i think. You can consider to change this, hunter may pass cultural borders may work better, but not for island civs, so in scenario there are the free trackers for the island civs needed.
EDIT:
So i strongly suggest, make hunters be able to pass other civs territory borders, yes that will help, not for island civs but will help all civs in later games. So blocked civs can still go to hunt, will help the AI.
And make the myth building possible with no need for the community disscussion and knowledge inheritance building directly from start, but keep the community disscussion and knowledge inheritance building for + education. So the player and the AI civs can still build it, but is not needed to build a myth. I will keep these two free buildings in scenario i think, because its giving the AI a bit education bouns, and a better start. Or these free buildings can be removed in next version when you change the myth need for them.
"Giving free units when those units can't be built normally seems a bit over powered to me. We can give free units at a tech discovered if you want. We do it with gatherers after all."
Its ok for the scenario, scenario should be hard, problem is you dont know when will the AI research the tech... So you may give 2 free trackers on oral tradition, but in scenario its better the AI has 2 trackers from start, makes a fair start.
@DH Remember that makeing the myths to need a tech to be build and not the buildings will not work because the AI may research the tech to late, so if you want to change that make the myths building require nothing to build or let it so as it is now, bound to these buildings. If you change it please report here so i can adapt the scenario.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
While new tags could make this possible, one of the defining differences between recon and hunter is this specifically and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to change that.
BTW, setting the AI to be at Deity level difficulty themselves but then giving them handicaps in other ways seems unnecessary to me. The problems you're trying to overcome for them are not as exacerbated to the extend to require these steps if they aren't given the hardest setting themselves.
This also explains why they are struggling so much with education!
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Too many AI in this scenario especially the "Old World" part of the map. Remove 10 AI from that side and they will do better impo.
I was looking into why the AI on Noble (their default) was going negative education so early. But that was put on the back burner. And while the Palace gives a +1 education (to offset the -1 for pop on Noble) it's not enough. Crime is reduced by 20 from Palace alone. And I never touched the Palace settings. I also feel that Noble should not be giving -1/pop to Education Or that Education's Property values need adjusted. In fact the very idea that education Must be -1/pop on Settler makes no sense to me. Settler thru Noble have the same education values in the Handicap files.
As for adding more units up front for the AI, that is just increasing the AI's maint. cost too early. Giving them more of a Gold drain than they should have. And since the Option Of Upscaled Unit and Bldg Cost is added into the mix for this scenario it makes it even worse.
The Option choices used are being revealed as to which ones cause the AI problems. Adding units or buildings or more gold at game start is just a temporary band-aid to mitigate these Option choices. The problems are still there because of the choices made.
JosEPh
I was looking into why the AI on Noble (their default) was going negative education so early. But that was put on the back burner. And while the Palace gives a +1 education (to offset the -1 for pop on Noble) it's not enough. Crime is reduced by 20 from Palace alone. And I never touched the Palace settings. I also feel that Noble should not be giving -1/pop to Education Or that Education's Property values need adjusted. In fact the very idea that education Must be -1/pop on Settler makes no sense to me. Settler thru Noble have the same education values in the Handicap files.
As for adding more units up front for the AI, that is just increasing the AI's maint. cost too early. Giving them more of a Gold drain than they should have. And since the Option Of Upscaled Unit and Bldg Cost is added into the mix for this scenario it makes it even worse.
The Option choices used are being revealed as to which ones cause the AI problems. Adding units or buildings or more gold at game start is just a temporary band-aid to mitigate these Option choices. The problems are still there because of the choices made.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
If you don't have at least a -1/pop on education (which is the representation of the need to spread teaching around at all) then education has nowhere to go but up. Pop is the ONLY drain on education at all.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
In which case it is not the building that is the problem and changing the building to auto build on the tech rather than on the buildings the tech provides wont help. They are not seeing the importance of the tech. That is the first problem.
The question becomes how deep does the check for importance of the tech and buildings go? Does the check for tech only look at the buildings/units directly opened up by the tech? Or does it consider the buildings auto built by the tech? Dose it consider the buildings that the buildings opened by the tech open up? If it is only going one lever ie what buildings are being opened up by the tech then that could be leading to the undervaluing of a number of techs and buildings.
Yep noticed that the AI all is on DEITY handicap in scenario now, so if i set this to NOBLE will the AI be more easy by this then on DEITY? Or will they still fight harder, so will affect the Handicap_NOBLE only the AI by handicap or will it make the AI more easy? Otherwise i can change this in scenario if it will help the AI to do better. Ok i think i try this, setting the AI to noble handicap for 2.8...
"While new tags could make this possible, one of the defining differences between recon and hunter is this specifically and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to change that."
What should be the problem to let hunters pass thrue other territory borders? So they can reach open land to hunt?
"Too many AI in this scenario especially the "Old World" part of the map. Remove 10 AI from that side and they will do better impo."
No, the number of AI civs dont affect how they play, map is large enouth for all civs and works fine with them, some will die later in game, very interresting gameplay.
"As for adding more units up front for the AI, that is just increasing the AI's maint. cost too early. Giving them more of a Gold drain than they should have. And since the Option Of Upscaled Unit and Bldg Cost is added into the mix for this scenario it makes it even worse."
No the -gold is not coming from the free units, there are enouth free units at start, so no maintainance cost for the player or the AI at start with 5-6 free units and the AI is doing perfectly with gold in scenario now. (With my 40 to 10 change)
"The Option choices used are being revealed as to which ones cause the AI problems."
All options that made problems have been removed or changed, wich one you mean? Scenario works fine so far now, only AI dont plays good enouth. And old man dont talk stupid stuff again.
No option has anything to do with the AI researching fast language and oral tradition and to get them trackers fast so they can go to hunt... adapting the scenario this way just makes the AI better, look on first page here the scenario options, you see any option still left in scenario that may cause problems?Yep thats why i give the AI 2 free trackers and the free buildings so they can start directly to hunt and build myths and so they can try to keep up with the player in research.
C2C - Ultimate Earth Map V2.8 delayed
Changing the AI from Handicap_DEITY to Handicap_NOBLE changed alot, AI builds faster, makes more research and its increasing its education.
If the player goes on deity he will stay behind the AI for sure.
So i have to change back alot of stuff now for 2.8, i will take away the free tracker units again and i will take away the free buildings again. Normal mod start again in 2.8 . So the difference when the AI plays on noble and the player on deity will make the scenario mutch more harder. AI will play mutch more better. The new difference with noble for the AI and deity for the player makes a very hard game now.
Changing the AI from Handicap_DEITY to Handicap_NOBLE changed alot, AI builds faster, makes more research and its increasing its education.
If the player goes on deity he will stay behind the AI for sure.
So i have to change back alot of stuff now for 2.8, i will take away the free tracker units again and i will take away the free buildings again. Normal mod start again in 2.8 . So the difference when the AI plays on noble and the player on deity will make the scenario mutch more harder. AI will play mutch more better. The new difference with noble for the AI and deity for the player makes a very hard game now.
Nice effect, i only get the animal myth requiment now but not the other benefits from the free buildings community disscusions and knowledge inhertiance until i have researched the techs, that rocks. So all AI civs and the player can hunt and create myths from start with the free trackers but for the building benefits the techs still needed. Screenshot... (I will change this back to normal after the handicap change in scenario for 2.8, no free trackers and no free buildings)
@DH But you can consider to just make the animal myth requirment auto building for free from start, then the AI will do better because they can build myths directly. So i suggest to make the animal myth requirment auto building for free from start. So the AI can build myths faster.
But maybe theres a new problem... some myths require knowledge inheritance building to build right? Maybe change these myths to need the animal myth requirment auto building.
@DH But you can consider to just make the animal myth requirment auto building for free from start, then the AI will do better because they can build myths directly. So i suggest to make the animal myth requirment auto building for free from start. So the AI can build myths faster.
But maybe theres a new problem... some myths require knowledge inheritance building to build right? Maybe change these myths to need the animal myth requirment auto building.
Attachments
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm glad you've seen the light regarding the AI difficulty setting. The point of what makes Noble harder is primarily the fact that the increased difficulty only impacts the player. Put the AI on the same setting and you've negated the handicap at all. Plus the AI is not really rigged for facing the complexity of trying to navigate the game with the deep mastery it takes to merely survive (at least financially so) on Deity. I find Deity games require carefully times selections of building wealth over what may appear to be obviously better decisions to keep the empire financially healthy - this is not a degree of evaluation the AI is gifted with and I fear even trying to give it that would result in either an incredible slowdown in turn times or even worse decisionmaking on the part of the AI in general.
Furthermore, part of the design intention of recon vs hunter as far as explorer units go is that recon units are allowed to pass through rival territories when a rite of passage is invoked while hunter units are not. Part of this comes down to the fact that it would not benefit an opponent leader to allow your hunter to pass and hunt beyond on land he may be trying to keep isolated from you so that he can be the only one to hunt there - or perhaps he's quite happy to keep your hunter stuck and hedged in to a cornered off portion of the world - regardless it wouldn't benefit the player that would be allowing the passage of the hunter to do so.
Recon (scouts) on the other hand are incapable of attacking. Therefore they approach with innocence and peace and for that reason it is more diplomatically acceptable to allow them to pass IF the rite of passage has been established. Hunters, since they CAN attack, are only allowed to pass with a full fledged Open Borders agreement.
The problem is that the Hunter is a unit that can attack. It's also not hidden nationality. This means that there would need to be at least a diplomatic relationship with the AI nation or special movement rules applied to the hunter to keep it from causing problems with AI cities.
Furthermore, part of the design intention of recon vs hunter as far as explorer units go is that recon units are allowed to pass through rival territories when a rite of passage is invoked while hunter units are not. Part of this comes down to the fact that it would not benefit an opponent leader to allow your hunter to pass and hunt beyond on land he may be trying to keep isolated from you so that he can be the only one to hunt there - or perhaps he's quite happy to keep your hunter stuck and hedged in to a cornered off portion of the world - regardless it wouldn't benefit the player that would be allowing the passage of the hunter to do so.
Recon (scouts) on the other hand are incapable of attacking. Therefore they approach with innocence and peace and for that reason it is more diplomatically acceptable to allow them to pass IF the rite of passage has been established. Hunters, since they CAN attack, are only allowed to pass with a full fledged Open Borders agreement.
