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Ohhhhh look this screenshot, turn 623 Hamurabi fixed his self, he has gold again and is away from STRIKE, very cool... so he should be able to survive, looks like the AI can fix its self now when they go down. I will look the AI again in turn 1000.

But if he will still build so many troops he will get - gold again soon, so realy make it so that the AI tops building troops when they get to mutch -gold, teach the AI to build only troops when they have no -gold income, clear the build list or forbit to build troops when you dont have gold, they should go to lesser wealth and dont build troops like hell that they cant pay if they dont have a building left to build.

But ok letz see in turn 1000 where hamurabi stands then. Maybe the AI sells now military units for a profit when they get to mutch -gold. Then its caused by the short build times for buildings, the AI has nothing left to build, so some of the killer AI building troops not lesser wealth or research stuff.

Screenshot...
 

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From looking at your screenshot I would say the Hammurabi "values" the Training time of slingers (2 turns) over the time for gatherers to improve tiles. This may be a GameSpeed iTrainpercent vs iBuildpercent adjustment. Making unit training time take a bit longer and reducing the time to improve a tile maybe what is needed here.

EDIT: Pit go into Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4GameSpeedInfos.xml file and change these 3 modifiers numbers for Eternity Game Speed;
1. iTrainPercent up it to 1000
2.iBuildPercent lower to 800
3 iImprovementPercent lower to 800

Then go back to your game and do a Re-Calc. It will take several turn for the changes to start taking effect. By turn 1000 you should see a difference.

JosEPh
 
@Thunderbrd

So Musk Ox allways attacks, maybe he should have the black animal flag, no other animal with green flag attacks always. (Reckless animals is on)
He doesn't always attack. He simply CAN attack. He's just an aggressive prey animal. He doesn't hunt other animals but he would attack animals that he knows to BE aggressive predators because he's skittish and hostile towards potential threats.

Hmm i dont think making the AI to conserve a bit gold that it will keep them from growing, it only will keep em away from building to mutch military units they cant pay.
Sure, if that's how it worked. But in most military AI checks, a gold allowance concern does not exist because the military unit is considered absolutely 100% critical. This is where the AI freaks out and panics under strike. The original reasoning was, just because the AI isn't bringing in enough $ doesn't mean it can manage an empire with no military units guarding its city, nor can it handle letting its properties go crazy bad. These things are rapidly causing the gold problem to escalate further so when a unit becomes an answer to improving the gold problem, a unit gets built, even though the strike may make the unit short lived. After a while, the strike does resolve usually. Most likely because losing all its units means a lot less upkeep. But if it doesn't, it's because the AI has overgrown and is being eaten alive by upkeep and crime. There's really no way out for them except to lose a city or two at this point. Sooner or later an enemy will oblige them.

The AI improvement that would need to be made is to actually filter potential build/train options more rigorously IF an actual STRIKE situation has been reached. At the moment there is no programming for that.

The AI will build more buildings then. But you see some of the AI goes to lesser wealth when needed, maybe that will only happen when they are at war with another civ, so they keep building troops, whatever it cost.
The cities building lesser wealth are the ones that have built themselves up enough that no other priority is considered a good idea. With many things being considered unnecessary during a strike, some cities may get to this point quickly and those will really bail out the nation for a while.

Ohhhhh look this screenshot, turn 623 Hamurabi fixed his self, he has gold again and is away from STRIKE, very cool... so he should be able to survive, looks like the AI can fix its self now when they go down. I will look the AI again in turn 1000.

But if he will still build so many troops he will get - gold again soon, so realy make it so that the AI tops building troops when they get to mutch -gold, teach the AI to build only troops when they have no -gold income, clear the build list or forbit to build troops when you dont have gold, they should go to lesser wealth and dont build troops like hell that they cant pay if they dont have a building left to build.

But ok letz see in turn 1000 where hamurabi stands then. Maybe the AI sells now military units for a profit when they get to mutch -gold. Then its caused by the short build times for buildings, the AI has nothing left to build, so some of the killer AI building troops not lesser wealth or research stuff.

Screenshot...
Teaching the AI how to balance building wealth to support a stronger empire than it normally can when it really needs to (as a player I've been there most games) is possibly one of the most complex things you can do. There's a lot of reasons that an existing military force can become too heavy for the empire to support suddenly... prosperous cities being taken, too much growth too fast. A number of reasons. There are many things that could be done to help the AI improve its gold management, all of them quite complex.

From looking at your screenshot I would say the Hammurabi "values" the Training time of slingers (2 turns) over the time for gatherers to improve tiles. This may be a GameSpeed iTrainpercent vs iBuildpercent adjustment. Making unit training time take a bit longer and reducing the time to improve a tile maybe what is needed here.

EDIT: Pit go into Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4GameSpeedInfos.xml file and change these 3 modifiers numbers for Eternity Game Speed;
1. iTrainPercent up it to 1000
2.iBuildPercent lower to 800
3 iImprovementPercent lower to 800

Then go back to your game and do a Re-Calc. It will take several turn for the changes to start taking effect. By turn 1000 you should see a difference.

JosEPh
He probably values the building of slingers because he doesn't have enough defenders. Maintaining a minimum # of defenders is a fairly high priority for build selections. Much higher than developing the land with gatherers. Whether a gather, when needed, is chosen for training over a defender is not a direct comparison. What happens is that the minimum defense needs are checked before the land development needs are checked. If a need is checked and it comes up that the need exists, then the city will attempt to fulfill it without bothering to check later priority needs at all.
 
Most of what I revealed here was intended to be backwater info. I don't want to TELL folks about the hidden benefits in spawning barb exiles because I want players to figure it out. When they do, they'll feel that joy of discovery and feel like they've joined an elite group of folks that have made this determination.


Good thinking and I agree. Those - "I have finally cracked it feelings" are great. :goodjob:
 
From looking at your screenshot I would say the Hammurabi "values" the Training time of slingers (2 turns) over the time for gatherers to improve tiles. This may be a GameSpeed iTrainpercent vs iBuildpercent adjustment. Making unit training time take a bit longer and reducing the time to improve a tile maybe what is needed here.

EDIT: Pit go into Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4GameSpeedInfos.xml file and change these 3 modifiers numbers for Eternity Game Speed;
1. iTrainPercent up it to 1000
2.iBuildPercent lower to 800
3 iImprovementPercent lower to 800

Then go back to your game and do a Re-Calc. It will take several turn for the changes to start taking effect. By turn 1000 you should see a difference.

JosEPh

I dont think so Joseph, because other AI dont have that problem... but maybe it will have a effect, but for now i will not change it, maybe later, i will look at trun 1000 if the AI can survive, looks like they can handle it someway. But maybe your right and there are some changes needed.
 
He doesn't always attack. He simply CAN attack. He's just an aggressive prey animal. He doesn't hunt other animals but he would attack animals that he knows to BE aggressive predators because he's skittish and hostile towards potential threats.


Sure, if that's how it worked. But in most military AI checks, a gold allowance concern does not exist because the military unit is considered absolutely 100% critical. This is where the AI freaks out and panics under strike. The original reasoning was, just because the AI isn't bringing in enough $ doesn't mean it can manage an empire with no military units guarding its city, nor can it handle letting its properties go crazy bad. These things are rapidly causing the gold problem to escalate further so when a unit becomes an answer to improving the gold problem, a unit gets built, even though the strike may make the unit short lived. After a while, the strike does resolve usually. Most likely because losing all its units means a lot less upkeep. But if it doesn't, it's because the AI has overgrown and is being eaten alive by upkeep and crime. There's really no way out for them except to lose a city or two at this point. Sooner or later an enemy will oblige them.

The AI improvement that would need to be made is to actually filter potential build/train options more rigorously IF an actual STRIKE situation has been reached. At the moment there is no programming for that.


The cities building lesser wealth are the ones that have built themselves up enough that no other priority is considered a good idea. With many things being considered unnecessary during a strike, some cities may get to this point quickly and those will really bail out the nation for a while.


Teaching the AI how to balance building wealth to support a stronger empire than it normally can when it really needs to (as a player I've been there most games) is possibly one of the most complex things you can do. There's a lot of reasons that an existing military force can become too heavy for the empire to support suddenly... prosperous cities being taken, too much growth too fast. A number of reasons. There are many things that could be done to help the AI improve its gold management, all of them quite complex.


He probably values the building of slingers because he doesn't have enough defenders. Maintaining a minimum # of defenders is a fairly high priority for build selections. Much higher than developing the land with gatherers. Whether a gather, when needed, is chosen for training over a defender is not a direct comparison. What happens is that the minimum defense needs are checked before the land development needs are checked. If a need is checked and it comes up that the need exists, then the city will attempt to fulfill it without bothering to check later priority needs at all.

Thunderbrd, as i told you Musk Ox always attacks, always! ;) Evry time on my game when you stay close one, like a predator animal with the black flag, i have recless animals on in my game now, so its a reckless animal bug or the musk ox is justed bugged or he needs the black flag not the green. So is really bugged. All other animals with green flags dont attack stronger units, musk ox always attacks also stronger units.

Also Hamurabi was able to get back in + gold 20 turns later and had no STRIKE, so i think the problem is when they dont have any building left to build then they build military units, other AI builds lesser wealth or research, but maybe looks like the AI will sell some of there units if they build to mutch, so these AI players like Hamurabi has to given the trait or they have to be teached to use lesser wealth not build military units endless. Find a way, if there is non. ;) We will see if the AI is able to survive in some more turns, maybe 2000 turns.

"Teaching the AI how to balance building wealth to support a stronger empire than it normally can when it really needs to (as a player I've been there most games) is possibly one of the most complex things you can do. There's a lot of reasons that an existing military force can become too heavy for the empire to support suddenly... prosperous cities being taken, too much growth too fast. A number of reasons. There are many things that could be done to help the AI improve its gold management, all of them quite complex."

Just make it so that you cant build military units when you have 0 gold or -gold in your treasury, also for the AI so this problem will be fixed and the it will make the AI mutch more better i think. Or teach the AI if there is no building left to build until they get a new tech then prefer lesser wealth or lesser research, only build military units if you need them. But when the AI sell the military units when they get to mutch so they will not go bankrupt and can survive at least.

"He probably values the building of slingers because he doesn't have enough defenders."

No he has 20-40 slingers, more than enouth defense, all players have only 1 city at this time. Only i have 2 because i destroyed the iroqs...
 
@T-brd,
Pit is right about the Musk Ox. It will always attack. Now I personally don't mind as I keep a direct handle on all my hunter/early mil units.

And in the Screenshot Hammurabi has 27 slingers plus 5 more Mil units defending his city. Yet his build que is filled with more slingers. So what is a sufficient # of defenders?

@Pit,
I understand. Leave it as is and at 1000 turns report again.

JosEPh
 
TURN 655 Hamurabi fixed his self, the AI works better than we think as it looks like... Screenshot, they can adapt in some way in some turns. I also noticed that when i go from banditry to tribal warfare i get huge amounts of -gold, so maybe that will make problems for the AI later also or now and they try to adapt in some way.

So also looks like he got a new tech and can build buildings again, his build list of slingers was removed or finished.
 

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@T-brd,
Pit is right about the Musk Ox. It will always attack. Now I personally don't mind as I keep a direct handle on all my hunter/early mil units.

JosEPh

I disagree. It attacks often but not always. My hunter has walked past 5 or 6 in a row without being attacked. They could move into the terrain so that was not it.
 
I only report what I see in my games.:dunno: In every instance the Musk Ox attacked. Of cours I was not just walking thru the area, I was hunting. I was ferrying 2 and 3 at a time back to my Cities. Cause if I stayed long enough they would kill my tracker/Hunter and I would lose all my "catch".

I'm using Reckless, Peace among, and Stay Out Options. But not Neanderthal Cities.

JosEPh
 
I disagree. It attacks often but not always. My hunter has walked past 5 or 6 in a row without being attacked. They could move into the terrain so that was not it.

Download my savegame AI-TEST some postings before, see yourself. ;) Always attacks on these settings, other green flag animals dont. Just run arround with my hunters to the north region. Also when it dont attacks sometimes then it attacks so many times it need to be changed or it need the black flag, no other green flag animal attacks so mutch.

Savegame:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=409773&d=1468410939
 
Thunderbrd, as i told you Musk Ox always attacks, always! ;) Evry time on my game when you stay close one, like a predator animal with the black flag, i have recless animals on in my game now, so its a reckless animal bug or the musk ox is justed bugged or he needs the black flag not the green. So is really bugged. All other animals with green flags dont attack stronger units, musk ox always attacks also stronger units.
On aggressive animals, all animals that can attack have a 50% chance of deciding to attack if something attackable is near enough to do so. It's that simple. You can flip a coin for a truly astounding amount of heads results in a row you know.

Also Hamurabi was able to get back in + gold 20 turns later and had no STRIKE, so i think the problem is when they dont have any building left to build then they build military units, other AI builds lesser wealth or research, but maybe looks like the AI will sell some of there units if they build to mutch, so these AI players like Hamurabi has to given the trait or they have to be teached to use lesser wealth not build military units endless. Find a way, if there is non. ;) We will see if the AI is able to survive in some more turns, maybe 2000 turns.
Selling military units is automatic under strike conditions and it's the problem when they get under their minimums. I've seen an AI take over my own nation after a revolution and completely destroy it because it didn't understand that 5 out of 7 of my cities needed to build wealth to support the military. Once it stopped doing that it quickly went into strike and all units were eventually lost and it could do nothing but try to build at least the minimum units it needed for satisfying defense needs in the city, units which would be destroyed as soon as they were trained. Eventually it weakly emerged from strike then later went back in when it built back up to having too many units.


Just make it so that you cant build military units when you have 0 gold or -gold in your treasury, also for the AI so this problem will be fixed and the it will make the AI mutch more better i think. Or teach the AI if there is no building left to build until they get a new tech then prefer lesser wealth or lesser research, only build military units if you need them. But when the AI sell the military units when they get to mutch so they will not go bankrupt and can survive at least.
You say 'just' like it wouldn't take about 50 hours of work. I've got bigger fish to fry at the moment.

No he has 20-40 slingers, more than enouth defense, all players have only 1 city at this time. Only i have 2 because i destroyed the iroqs...
And in the Screenshot Hammurabi has 27 slingers plus 5 more Mil units defending his city. Yet his build que is filled with more slingers. So what is a sufficient # of defenders?
Yeah, ok, so I admit I was assumign we were talking about the nation under strike conditions.

That is a very odd stack of slingers he's building. I'm not sure what would motivate him to do that but probably has something to do with a war strategy setting. Why slingers? Well... they can actually be a pretty good invasion unit, particularly once upgraded. Maybe that's it. Could be an interesting seriously early city attack force.

Would have to get under the hood to evaluate what their AI is and why they were ordered up. The point that they aren't being directly compared to the possibility of building a gatherer is still valid though. I wouldn't think an effort like that would be evaluated before the will to build a gatherer would be, but for whatever reason, the motivation to build a gatherer has been considered useless to this AI, even though clearly it would be useful. There are some tricky bits of programming in that evaluation that can lead to some counterintuitive results. Good reasons for it but very hard to determine how to really get it to do it 'right'. It's been something Alberts and I have both tinkered with trying to get it dialed in properly and I think we're both overlooking some considerations.

Download my savegame AI-TEST some postings before, see yourself. ;) Always attacks on these settings, other green flag animals dont. Just run arround with my hunters to the north region. Also when it dont attacks sometimes then it attacks so many times it need to be changed or it need the black flag, no other green flag animal attacks so mutch.
The flag has no effect on how the animal is programmed to behave. However, certain personality types for animals do tend to be found grouped within the same player groups. So there is a pattern there, yes, but not a direct relationship at all. There is good reason for that and I've tried to explain why but have apparently failed so I give up trying to make sense and I'm just going to say no. I'm not changing the AI for the Musk Ox. No further reasons will be given.
 
"On aggressive animals, all animals that can attack have a 50% chance of deciding to attack if something attackable is near enough to do so. It's that simple. You can flip a coin for a truly astounding amount of heads results in a row you know."

In my settings green flag animals never attack, only musk ox always attack. ;) So its no big deal, hunters can handle this, but flag still wrong then for musk ox. Your choice to change the flag or change the musk ox. Okok... i begin to feel like we are in the movie The Flight of the Phoenix from 1965 here. :D :D :D

"Selling military units is automatic under strike conditions and it's the problem when they get under their minimums. I've seen an AI take over my own nation after a revolution and completely destroy it because it didn't understand that 5 out of 7 of my cities needed to build wealth to support the military. Once it stopped doing that it quickly went into strike and all units were eventually lost and it could do nothing but try to build at least the minimum units it needed for satisfying defense needs in the city, units which would be destroyed as soon as they were trained. Eventually it weakly emerged from strike then later went back in when it built back up to having too many units."

Yeah when they sell there units automatic on STRIKE if needed then the AI is at least able to survive. As soon as they have a building to build agin they will build it and no units, if they dont have a building to build again they will start building units again maybe, i check hamurabi in 5 turns. Dont know how mutch work it takes, but something can be done there, take your time. But please before our water supply is depleted. ;)
 
Some turns later hamurabi still looks ok.
 

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Question from the screenshot: where is the Tribal Guardian? Is this actually a 2nd city for Hammurabi? Or has his Capital city been attacked before?

It's a good sign though that he is now building a tracker.

In all these test games for the GS changes, one thing I've noticed is that the amount of time it takes to improve a city tile influences the AI's decision making for other city aspects. If at an early stage in the game for any AI the time involved to build a trail/path or improve a tile is taking 2 or 3 times to perform than the time it takes to train a new Mil or Hunting unit the AI will build the units. But it also considers the tile production in it's initial state and the number of citizens it has to work those tiles. How many of those city tiles can Hammurabi (or any AI) actually work? What is the pop level of his city? Has the AI decided to use 1 of his citizens as an early specialist? And of course the screenshot shows the answers to these Questions.

Keep up with the reports Pit, and the screenshots. They are giving some valuable data.

JosEPh
 
Hammurabi has 2 gatherers improving plots outside his city now, and he has only one city, i check for the tribal guardian later in next AI test, hes at war with no one, so maybe he sold the tribal guardian unit in STRIKE selling.
 
Maybe the vulture animal unit has a bug, its the only animal i can study now... (study button) dont works on other animal units, bug? Screeni...
 

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Let me know please when (the date and turn) you get Sedentary Lifestyle researched. And also if you notice from the messages if another Civ was the 1st to get there and when or if you are 1st.

How many more techs after Earth Oven do you have before Sed Life?

And thanks for the screenshots.

JosEPh :)
 
Let me know please when (the date and turn) you get Sedentary Lifestyle researched. And also if you notice from the messages if another Civ was the 1st to get there and when or if you are 1st.

How many more techs after Earth Oven do you have before Sed Life?

And thanks for the screenshots.

JosEPh :)

I will hit Sedentary Lifestyle now at about 765 turns, but i have 18 techs left to research in prehistoric era, so its ok so far. I will be the first i think, i will see that in 10-20 turns. ;)

And one question anyone knows? Can this unit see hidden thiefs?

CAN SEE WHAT? Look the screenshot, Unit trained dogs "can see" what? Red mark on screenshot...
 

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