C2C - Units

[cdman1990]

the first gatling guns were actioned by a hand crank so their place is best put at rifling, their first use was in the american civil war around the time the repeating rifle was introduced, so it will fit better at rifling tech.

you could introduce a heavy machine gun, to represent the WW2 era machine gun between trench and modern machine guns. actually in WW2 2 types of machine guns were used, light machine guns who were mobile and could be repositioned and heavy machine guns who were mostly static defense.

the heavy machine gun could be 40 strenght and leave the normal machine gun at 30

 

[Hydromancerx]

Oy so the old way was right?

 

[Sparth]

repeating rifle was introduced, so it will fit better at rifling tech.

Repeating rifle = semi-automatic guns tech (like winchester rifle)
After rifling tech you can start creating riflemans which are representing infantry from napoleonic era to american civil war period. After Civil War infantry start using semi-automatic guns (look at cavalry unit) and in this period of time gatling gun was invented.



Heavy Machine Guns in WWII was mostly used mounted in vehicles (like jeeps for example - unit already in-game) and Light Machine Gun like MG's 42 was used by infantry (sometimes also in light vehicles).

Edit: look in wikipedia on Gatling Gun. He was in service in this years: 1862–1911, 50 years after Napoleon!

 

[Hydromancerx]

I put stuff back for now. I will wait until this discussion is resolved.

I am open to changes I just don't want to have to keep redoing them.

 

[Sparth]

ok

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well I guess the question is the tech tree a timeline or a tech milestones? I would say the later. However when it was redone many techs were moved in the order that was more historically accurate than we had them before. Though we still have some weird orders.

So that leads to 2 questions ...

1. What is the earliest Gatling Gun? Rifling or Semi-Automatic Weapons?

2. Which is the earliest Machine Gun? Semi-Automatic Weapons or Trench Warfare?

I personally do not know the answers which is why I want feedback from people like Sparth and cdman1990. Or anyone else who knows these eras of history.

So we have some configurations.

Choice A (What we have now)
- Organ Gun (20) = Explosives
- Gatling Gun (25) = Rifling
- Machine Gun (30) = Semi-Automatic Weapons
- Trench Machine Gun (35) = Trench Warfare
- Modern Machine Gun (55) = Manufacturing AND Automatic Weapons

Choice B (What we had briefly)
- Organ Gun (20) = Explosives
- Gatling Gun (25) = Semi-Automatic Weapons
- Trench Machine Gun (35) = Trench Warfare
- Machine Gun (45) = Automatic Weapons
- Modern Machine Gun (55) = Manufacturing AND Automatic Weapons

Choice C (A new hybrid choice)
- Organ Gun (20) = Explosives
- Gatling Gun (25) = Rifling
- Trench Machine Gun (35) = Trench Warfare
- Machine Gun (45) = Automatic Weapons
- Modern Machine Gun (55) = Manufacturing AND Automatic Weapons

Which one do you guys like?

 

[Sparth]

B or C for me
B is more accurate but C would make Gatling Gun more playable (until he need to be upgraded to Trench Machine Guns).

 

[Yudishtira]

B for me.

1. What is the earliest Gatling Gun? Rifling or Semi-Automatic Weapons?

It may be outside the scope of this discussion, but I don't think any tech should allow you to start spamming Gatling Guns (given that there isn't going to be a Gatling Gun tech...)

Gatling Guns are a whole nother invention by themselves. Only a fraction of the process of inventing (mostly perspiration as I think Edison would have it but I digress) the Gatling Gun had been done at the [Semi-Automatic Weaponswhichever] tech.

I propose a new Inventor/Engineer line of units, analogous to the Merchant line, that can (among other things) be expended in unlocking technologically-unique units such as the Gatling Gun. A lesser Great Scientist or Great Engineer. Great idea huh?

Btw, I see this applying all the way back to at least the Catapult and maybe further. But only to units requiring intricate technology that is not explicitly a tech. And now I've hijacked the discussion far enough.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Anyone else want to weigh in their opinion? Otherwise I will go with choice B, due to feedback.

 

[Thunderbrd]

B seems to work best to me without looking into the whole tech tree to evaluate.

 

[Yudishtira]

I genuinely congratulate you - especially Hydro - on the changes to the throwing/archery lines from late prehistoric to medieval.

However I'm finding in the prehistoric that the Atlatl has no counter. No unit starts with anti-throwing. Furthermore, (if I'm not mistaken) it can't even get the Sidestep(?) promo, so they can't even counter one another.

Should it really be so dominant and unchallenged? Or should it maybe be strength 3, especially as now there is a strength 4 Archer?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Should it really be so dominant and unchallenged? Or should it maybe be strength 3, especially as now there is a strength 4 Archer?

I have been thinking the same thing.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have been thinking the same thing.

I've almost posted that proposal myself but was worried to do so might make them too weak in comparison to the obsidian melee.

 

[Rodnok]

There is a strength 4 archer, but it is pretty far away... And the archer gives more bonuses to city defense or hills.
Until now the atl-atls were at least something to give the defending AI or barbarian city a chance. I already had one game with obsidian nearby when I could just conquer anything and it was deity with raging barbs.
I'd rather increase the unit costs, they were too cheap.

 

[Faustmouse]

If Str 3 is too weak, you could boost them a little bit with increasing their starting "+ X % against CC" values. Or more Withdrawn/Firstrikes etc.


Btw, Yudishtira are you still making units?

 

[Yudishtira]

If Str 3 is too weak, you could boost them a little bit with increasing their starting "+ X % against CC" values. Or more Withdrawn/Firstrikes etc.

There is still nothing that starts with a bonus against them, and they still can't get the promo against each other. (I don't have obsidian, so I can't comment on how unbalancing it may or may not be...)

Btw, Yudishtira are you still making units?

I don't think I have any units specced for me to make. For now, I respectfully decline to spec your Atompunk units. Spec them (without redneck Cold-War-fantasy superpowers) and I will make them. If you guys are going to put him in the mod, I will be happy to spec out my inventor and then make him.

 

[Taxman66]

Option B regarding the machine gun issue. As a side note the US army still uses their WW2 era M2 (maude duce) 50 cal machine gun. Though it is no longer used in aircraft. Not sure if it is still used as a secodarry weapon in AFVs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There is a strength 4 archer, but it is pretty far away... And the archer gives more bonuses to city defense or hills.
Until now the atl-atls were at least something to give the defending AI or barbarian city a chance. I already had one game with obsidian nearby when I could just conquer anything and it was deity with raging barbs.
I'd rather increase the unit costs, they were too cheap.

If Str 3 is too weak, you could boost them a little bit with increasing their starting "+ X % against CC" values. Or more Withdrawn/Firstrikes etc.


Btw, Yudishtira are you still making units?

I don't think they'll be too weak (and don't go willy-nilly adjusting withdrawal values as those are in a carefully balanced gradient throughout the throwing unit upgrade chains.) As stated, nothing automatically counters them so it's a golden age for throwing units already (mounted is throwing's natural counter unit type which hasn't been invented yet at that point.)

Obsidian is one of those resources that should be able to give your civ a huge edge in this era (and doesn't do all that much for you later in the game) so if you are lucky enough to have it, why not allow you to dominate easily? You'll find it plays out very differently if you DON'T have obsidian and the atlatls are going to be quite tough to take down with the stone wielding melee you've got.

There is still nothing that starts with a bonus against them, and they still can't get the promo against each other. (I don't have obsidian, so I can't comment on how unbalancing it may or may not be...)



I don't think I have any units specced for me to make. For now, I respectfully decline to spec your Atompunk units. Spec them (without redneck Cold-War-fantasy superpowers) and I will make them. If you guys are going to put him in the mod, I will be happy to spec out my inventor and then make him.

What did you have in mind for the inventor?

 

[Yudishtira]

What did you have in mind for the inventor?

It would be a unit somewhat analogous to the Storyteller line. I just notice that the Storyteller can build buildings. The inventor's primary mission is to 'unlock' units. I think that can only be done currently by him building the building that is a prereq for the unit. It would have to be a special building that cannot be built any other way.

This applies only to units that have a technological component that is neither explicitly a tech, nor a 'no-brainer' application of a tech. So the siege engines, artillery types, ancient rocketeer, catapult, even the crossbow - that sort of thing. (Several of Hydro's new bows sound like they might need inventing...) Most of them up to the Renaissance are attached to the Ancient Machinery, Ancient Ballistics, Alchemy, or Metallurgy techs. (Then in the Industrial and later eras, there are a lot more of them.)

In gameplay terms, it means a delay after the relevant tech before the unit can be produced, as well as an investment of hammers in building the unit. The unit would be unlocked by the 'breakthrough' technology, so he could not be pre-built before there was anything to invent.

It's a similar mechanism to what happens with the unlocking of the Siege Weapons Workshop. The tech does not unlock the unit, it unlocks the building which unlocks several units. In this case, it will unlock the Inventor. The Inventor is the only way to unlock certain unit/s dependent on that tech. If there are multiple units available to unlock, one Inventor can only unlock one of them - it is up to the player which one.

In realism terms, it represents the fact that the discovery of gunpowder didn't turn overnight into artillery pieces. It needed to be found applications for, and adapted for them in often ingenious and counterintuitive ways.

Unique (eg. the Hwacha) and alt-timeline units would probably be exempt: in those cases the culture wonder - which has taken time to unlock and build - can substitute for the process of invention that this unit represents.

 

[Faustmouse]

The main problem I can see here is that you'd need a different Inventor for each siege unit if you should not be able to prebuild them. And then he would construct it's workshop in one turn. Except you want to build him a building that is a prereq for a specific workshop that has to be build normally. But then it would be easier to skip the Inventor at all and have a Siege Workshop like building for every unit that needs "invention".
How do you see the progress during researching a Tech? That's a really interesting question I think! For me, during researching, your scientists (Shamans, Alchemists, Inventors, Supercomputers...) experiment a lot and find all applications. When you finally got the technology, they already "mastered" it, thus for me it fits fine that you have all units/buildings/etc right after you resarch a tech. Because then we need an Inventor for almost every unit:

Just because you learn weaving doesn't mean you automatically have Slings.
Just because you know woodworking doesn't mean you automatically know how to build Rafts.
etc...