C2C - Units

So they go from being exiled to working for you? Or why then don't the other units in the line also get exiled in the same way? Ie can't enter your borders and get moved out of your borders on creation? Or has that all changed since I last played with them?

edit it is just that the exclusion and especially initial expulsion are so powerful. The latter because the unit gets many free moves before you get to move it first. The only downside is that you don't get to choose which direction they get sent. Pity there isn't an improvement calls "X exile camp" where all your exiles get sent.
 
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They work for you (well... the ones you train) because they are being given an opportunity to potentially earn back their place in the tribe. Other criminals aren't handled as exiles because usually criminals past a point in social development of a nation are being enslaved or jailed instead... however, there is a plan to allow one to take this as an option once you've made an arrest - turn the unit to yours but give them a promotion that makes them an exile that cannot enter your own borders (even if they are a Thief, Rogue or worse). It's one of the intended potential results of a 'trial segment'.

As things are now, the exile 'mechanism' on the Exile unit is an introduction to more uses to come in the future.

Keep in mind most Exiles on the map are barb exiles that remember the nation that exiled them and cannot enter the borders of the nation they spawned from but DON'T serve the nations interests at all nevertheless.
 
Just a thought because there are historical examples of nations behaving in a similar way to lion prides and elephant herds in that excess males are "exiled" but may come back later as adults. The example in an Archaeology magazine was of a "Dog Boys" encampment. The "boys" were exiled and lived in an all male tribe, with dogs hence the name, where they acted sort of like barbarians with "pillage" AI but not on their original tribe, so like exiles. After they survived awhile they could go back to their tribe or approach another tribe and join it. In game terms they would, after a couple of promotions, join a nation as a warrior of some type.

The example in the magazine was in the western Asia, eastern Europe and northern Middle East region.
 
Just a thought because there are historical examples of nations behaving in a similar way to lion prides and elephant herds in that excess males are "exiled" but may come back later as adults. The example in an Archaeology magazine was of a "Dog Boys" encampment. The "boys" were exiled and lived in an all male tribe, with dogs hence the name, where they acted sort of like barbarians with "pillage" AI but not on their original tribe, so like exiles. After they survived awhile they could go back to their tribe or approach another tribe and join it. In game terms they would, after a couple of promotions, join a nation as a warrior of some type.

The example in the magazine was in the western Asia, eastern Europe and northern Middle East region.
I wanted to give them a promotion that might give them another upgrade path or something... I had considered that line of thinking but hadn't come to a conclusion about how to best go about it... if/when they return, it should be to bring a revolutionary benefit imo.

I was also thinking of Caine who went on to found his own civilization... perhaps another eventual thing they could attain is the leadership of a new band somewhere.
 
The "pillage of neighbours" tradition by bands of young males is seen in literature throughout history.
They're certainly capable of that now of course, and of infiltrating neighboring communities and bringing back valuable espionage info that can earn their way back into the tribe.
 
I am, as some know, working on a full unit tree analysis from the beginning of the game forward.

I'm finding a few adjustments to suggest and make of course, but also in the process I'm finding a few new units I'd like to include. Those might be a bit more challenging because of art asset needs, so I'm looking for some help in that regard and bringing these up quite a bit before I want to start trying to put them into XML to see if I can enlist some aid in getting the models ready for them.

The first is a Stone Knifeman (Daggerman, Knife Wielder... I dunno, name is not as important at the moment). He'd basically be pretty crude, unarmored, but armed with an early stone knife, so could be a fairly easy upgrade to an existing unit art-wise.

The second is a War Slinger, a Slinger upgrade that would open up at Tanning, representing the use of a larger, stronger, sling thong made of leather as opposed to a mere weave. Some of the models we use now for slingers could be divided up a bit or adjusted so that some are relegated purely for use on the original Slinger and others set aside for this War Slinger.

Any help with these two are appreciated.

Soon, I'll express stats and other unit adjustment suggestions and why I'm proposing them. I'm taking my time in analysis with this stuff.
 
Also going to need:

* Throwing Axeman (or Throwing Hammerman) - lightly armored but medieval. I know we have a unit already for this that's in the cultural units, Franks I think... and I'll take it off of them if I need to. I don't think the culture is inseparable from the design of the mod at the moment, but we do need a unit like this in the core arrangement as an upgrade for Skirmishers to extend this line to its conclusion.

* Heavy Flailman - Perhaps there are multiple Flailmen models we could sort out and take the heavier stronger looking ones for this? Best would be if this guy had the full 3 flail heads you'd expect on a very heavy flail and armor decked out.

* Alchemist - I know we have Taoist Priests labeled that at the moment but it's nothing to change their name over to 'Daoshi' and we need a good unit step between Arsonists and Grenadiers and placing it at the Alchemy tech is just perfect. Artistically, this guy could be a lot of fun for a developer but I'm interested to see what we can come up with. Boiling oil and toxic beaker tosser basically. Could have a hell of a lot of fun with this dude when we get equipment in place!

More requests pending still.
 
Also going to need:

* Throwing Axeman (or Throwing Hammerman) - lightly armored but medieval. I know we have a unit already for this that's in the cultural units, Franks I think... and I'll take it off of them if I need to. I don't think the culture is inseparable from the design of the mod at the moment, but we do need a unit like this in the core arrangement as an upgrade for Skirmishers to extend this line to its conclusion.

* Heavy Flailman - Perhaps there are multiple Flailmen models we could sort out and take the heavier stronger looking ones for this? Best would be if this guy had the full 3 flail heads you'd expect on a very heavy flail and armor decked out.

* Alchemist - I know we have Taoist Priests labeled that at the moment but it's nothing to change their name over to 'Daoshi' and we need a good unit step between Arsonists and Grenadiers and placing it at the Alchemy tech is just perfect. Artistically, this guy could be a lot of fun for a developer but I'm interested to see what we can come up with. Boiling oil and toxic beaker tosser basically. Could have a hell of a lot of fun with this dude when we get equipment in place!

More requests pending still.

Medieval Grenadier or Bomberman would be a good name instead of Alchemists. I have a handful of units ideas. One of them would involve the separation of units with different metals. Instead of having one unit that requires any metal, we have different units for each metal you have and they upgrade based on the metal you have. Rather than having a Spearmen unit or a Light Swordsmen unit, would have a Copper Spearmen unit or a Steel Light Swordsmen unit (Light Swordsmen should be unlocked at Bronze Working; the sword was invented in the Bronze age), analogous to the transition of Stone and Obsdein weapons in the Prehistoric era.
This could easily extend into the Atomic and beyond age with different units having different weapons, such as Trench Shotgunner or SMG Solider for Automatic Weapons.
 
Medieval Grenadier or Bomberman would be a good name instead of Alchemists.
I would prefer Alchemists - reason being that I want them to be able to choose from a selection of interesting weapons choices when we get Equipment into the game. In some cases, they are the guys with the boiling oil defending the walls. In others, they are the ones throwing acid at the gates. At other times they may be flinging off vials of flammable liquids that alight when exposed to air. They might at times use poisons and sticky and slippery substances. That sort of thing. The guys deployed to use whatever new chemical weaponry is most effective in a given situation. Grenadier or bomberman would indicate that their weaponry is tending to usually be explosive but at this stage, that's not really the tech being employed as often because explosives aren't all that advanced yet.

Rather than having a Spearmen unit or a Light Swordsmen unit, would have a Copper Spearmen unit or a Steel Light Swordsmen unit (Light Swordsmen should be unlocked at Bronze Working; the sword was invented in the Bronze age), analogous to the transition of Stone and Obsdein weapons in the Prehistoric era.
This could easily extend into the Atomic and beyond age with different units having different weapons, such as Trench Shotgunner or SMG Solider for Automatic Weapons.
All intended to be made capable through the variations enabled in the Equipment mod. Setting up some new units now is a part of paving the way towards that project as well. This unit review I'm doing is for a number of combat mod options to be enabled eventually and I've been needing to do this for a long long time. I've been held back a bit because I needed a more stable tech tree, one that will never again undergo dramatic changes or all this work will be scrambled. I'm not saying it can't be modified some in the future, just that when I found we were going to have a massive reconstruction of the near future and prehistoric eras, I held off on doing this for a bit.
 
Should there also be more space units, and units, in general, coming into the Galatic, Comic and Transcendent eras?
I evaluate from the beginning of the tree forward and I have previously considered everything past modern too unlikely that players will reach that stage to tend to put as much towards development.

Part of this is also because the deeper we get into that side of the tree, the more that I want units that will be able to do things and use tag effects that have not been created yet.

However, I do intend for this review to plan things out into much later into the tree than it really has so far. Ultimately it's getting time to start mapping out the new units and balances and concepts for the far later game as well but I can't promise beyond Galactic will get much focus yet. I mean to extend the plans out further but maybe not the whole way... yet.

The biggest challenge is going to be the unit art.

I did the naval review a while back and there's still a lot to implement there but I think it's important to get this land unit review in place as well before trying to force to get everything done for the naval stuff first.
 
Been looking at the Horseman and other era concurrent riding units and trying to figure out how to acquiesce to admitting that people didn't FIGHT from horseback, or any other animal back for that matter, until much later, but DID use them to move around at times.

What it looks like we would need is a point on the tech tree where the bit and bridle and saddle is invented. I'm looking at the tree and not seeing this tech. So I figured I'd ask y'all to consider where such a tech should be on the tree and give me an idea of where it would be best placed. Obviously after charioteering according to y'alls theories, but not toooo far. At this stage, we'd place upgrades of the Dismounted Fighters that open up where they are now at Animal Riding, and we'd probably move the stables there as well, since it strikes me that stables are rather early at Animal Riding (though a 'coral' building (sp?) would be appropriate at riding.) I can stat the new units and I've already planned out weaker defend worthy units for Animal Riding.

I was thinking for Elephants, they would've been sent in to thrash things, much like Rhinos, early on, rather than being actually ridden.

I may, however, keep the blend of Mounted and the other form of combat for these Dismount unit types, making them doubly vulnerable, but also doubly capable of getting the training benefits available to both (xp). That's been the standard so far. I may change that eventually.


EDIT: Perhaps just before the Plough...
 
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Saddles are about 700BC, Bits are about 3000BC, Horseback Riding is about 3500BC, the Wheel is about 4000 BC, take these dates with a grain of salt, because the only way we'll know for sure is via Time Machine, but I guess we could use it to have a rough estimate to what was before what,

And I'd say we should see how much we could incorporate these Techs, because they've been a Vital discovery to the Old World,

My guess is to have a Bareback Mounted Braves (not actual name) Unit at Horseback Riding, that basically use their body and the manes to control the animal, which serves more a light harassment and hunting Purpose

I Think Chariots come After Horseback Riding, but I'm not sure, (and also a bit tired while riding this, so mistakes are easily made), though those would indeed more War Orientated,

Either wait until Equipment comes along and give the Mounted Braves the Bit, or have a unit that's a bit more capable but still in the same role, It could also be used to have a building that's a little more Horseback related

I don't know much about Mounted Infantry, or Tamers that basically point their animals in a certain direction and unleashes them so idk where those would fit in,
 
I Think Chariots come After Horseback Riding, but I'm not sure, (and also a bit tired while riding this, so mistakes are easily made), though those would indeed more War Orientated,
Always been my contention but many have argued that chariots precede the use of horseback to fight from and I'm trying to look for a way to work with that assertion.

@Dancing Hoskuld I need your feedback on this particularly I think.
 
I think @Raven Destroyer meant "in the C2C tech tree Chariots come after Horseback Riding" since in his first sentence he says Chariots come at 4000BC and Horse Riding at 3500BC in the real world. :lol:
I was looking at the tree... do you think that a Bit and Bridle tech that comes just before Plough would be appropriate? (though I'm not sure if even plough should be coming in potentially before metal casting...)
 
I was looking at the tree... do you think that a Bit and Bridle tech that comes just before Plough would be appropriate? (though I'm not sure if even plough should be coming in potentially before metal casting...)
There were wooden ploughs long before there were metal ones. ;) There were even ones made from antler which is one possible place where the idea came from. Tree branches would also do.

The Bit came much later than the harness/bridle and were very cruel . It does give more control over the animal.

The initial saddles held you in and probably did damage if you did manage to slip out. They look nothing like modern saddles.

The horse collar came later and revolutionized both agriculture and transport but have little application in war beyond baggage trains.

Bye the way, baggage trains were the main limiter for movement. When they started having the soldiers (and support people) carry their own food etc armies were able to travel much faster, even foot soldiers.
 
There were wooden ploughs long before there were metal ones. ;) There were even ones made from antler which is one possible place where the idea came from. Tree branches would also do.

The Bit came much later than the harness/bridle and were very cruel . It does give more control over the animal.
OK, so what would you say was the prerequisite for the willingness and effectiveness to ride a horse into battle? I'm hoping it would be something that would be around that point on the tech tree but I'm looking for what you think was the actual trigger technological invention. Would it have been the harness/bridle? Would we see an improvement at the development of the Bit and at what points on the tree would both of those tend to have been introduced? At what point do we start seeing the use of the saddle?

We've noted the tech where the stirrup is invented and it has a profound effect on unit upgrade access. But the above... I think we need to look at when these came into play. Since you're fairly knowledgeable on that I'm asking you.

I'm thinking the horse collar is a much later thing.
 
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