C2C - Units

[Alex Costa]

Another one. The Ironwood Clubman the Mapuche Cultural Unit appears at Heating Treatment. Yet the Mapuche culture is unlocked with Agriculture. Since Heating treatment will eventually lead to Agriculture it should be moved to Agriculture.

Edit: The Koa National Unit also says it requires Bone Working, Boat Fishing and Polytheism. The first ones redundant since it leads to the other two. Boat fishing can actually be skipped if you go right for Polytheism so that should stay.

 

[Alex Costa]

Moving onto Dog units:

The one requiring built at the Garrison should only require leadership and the one requiring the Police Station should only require Criminology

 

[Vokarya]

Moving onto Dog units:

The one requiring built at the Garrison should only require leadership and the one requiring the Police Station should only require Criminology

Are you playing SVN or a release version? I pruned all the core unit tech redundancies back on SVN 4438, so you should be seeing only the Trained Dogs at Canine Domestication now. I left the Koa because that one may be up for change.

 

[Alex Costa]

Are you playing SVN or a release version? I pruned all the core unit tech redundancies back on SVN 4438, so you should be seeing only the Trained Dogs at Canine Domestication now. I left the Koa because that one may be up for change.

They still appear on the tech quote for me. As for the Koa do you agree with my proposal?

A question where do you want me to report redundancies for Wonders?

 

[Alex Costa]

Are you playing SVN or a release version? I pruned all the core unit tech redundancies back on SVN 4438, so you should be seeing only the Trained Dogs at Canine Domestication now. I left the Koa because that one may be up for change.

Ah wait it's the Buildings actually not the Units that appear there still.

 

[Vokarya]

Ah wait it's the Buildings actually not the Units that appear there still.

I haven't tried to weed building redundancies yet. Personally, I agree with you on relentlessly pruning redundancies -- changing things now doesn't stop us from changing them again later.

 

[Alex Costa]

I haven't tried to weed building redundancies yet. Personally, I agree with you on relentlessly pruning redundancies -- changing things now doesn't stop us from changing them again later.

Well I will continuously looking for them as I play. Anyway should I report the wonders on it's thread? I already found two wonder redundancies namely the International Dog Show which I heard mentioning and the Moai Statues.

 

[ls612]

@Alex Costa:

If you list all of the redundancies you find in one post it is far easier for us to keep track of them and fix them all.

 

[Alex Costa]

@Alex Costa:

If you list all of the redundancies you find in one post it is far easier for us to keep track of them and fix them all.

Well that is what I will be doing sorry. Most of them seem to be National Units and Cultural Units since Vokarya has fixed most of them.

 

[Faustmouse]

I think if you really want to find some redundancies, check the buildings, especially in from the industrial era onwards.

 

[Alex Costa]

More redundancies. The Chasquis Unit which is Quechua culture comes at Axe Making. However this culture is only unlocked at Camel Domestication of which the first tech leads to. So move Chasquis to Camel Domestication.

Edit. The Vulture which is Sumerian requires Axe Making. Sumerian however is unlocked at Agriculture which Axe Making leads to. So move the Vulture to Agriculture or perhaps later.

 

[Hydromancerx]

More redundancies. The Chasquis Unit which is Quechua culture comes at Axe Making. However this culture is only unlocked at Camel Domestication of which the first tech leads to. So move Chasquis to Camel Domestication.

Edit. The Vulture which is Sumerian requires Axe Making. Sumerian however is unlocked at Agriculture which Axe Making leads to. So move the Vulture to Agriculture or perhaps later.

Most of these have the unit techs based on the Units technology. The Civ Wonder has its own technology. Which is much easier to be moved around. I would prefer to leave the units at their current technology despite what their Wonder's technology says.

In fact the fact that each cross many different techs shows how diverse the culture is. You should not worry too much about redundancy with them. Especially since as more civs get added the wonders may move around.

 

[Vokarya]

Most of these have the unit techs based on the Units technology. The Civ Wonder has its own technology. Which is much easier to be moved around. I would prefer to leave the units at their current technology despite what their Wonder's technology says.

In fact the fact that each cross many different techs shows how diverse the culture is. You should not worry too much about redundancy with them. Especially since as more civs get added the wonders may move around.

I think that just makes the technology for the unit confusing, because you can get to a tech, and it lists a nominally available unit, but you won't be able to train that unit for a while because you have to wait until you get the tech for the culture. I think that's a bigger drawback. It's not as if we have to leave unit techs where they are if we decide to move things.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think that just makes the technology for the unit confusing, because you can get to a tech, and it lists a nominally available unit, but you won't be able to train that unit for a while because you have to wait until you get the tech for the culture. I think that's a bigger drawback. It's not as if we have to leave unit techs where they are if we decide to move things.

If you guys can't stand it I will move the Wonder to the appropriate tech for the unit. However that means lots of clustered cultures. Which becomes boring.

 

[Alex Costa]

If you guys can't stand it I will move the Wonder to the appropriate tech for the unit. However that means lots of clustered cultures. Which becomes boring.

I guess that could work as well? Honestly Hydro if we are gonna do a rehaul of the culture wonders that is adding it other bonus perhaps we ought to leave it for later. Also can someone link me to a Wonder thread?

 

[Vokarya]

If you guys can't stand it I will move the Wonder to the appropriate tech for the unit. However that means lots of clustered cultures. Which becomes boring.

The problem isn't the Wonder, the problem is that having the Culture resource as a prerequisite for the unit adds a hidden tech prerequisite, and so the actual tech prerequisites for the unit need to reflect that. It would be like having a unit with a Matchlock tech prerequisite and a Steel resource prerequisite. I can see what you're saying, but I think you're arguing from a developer perspective and we're taking the player perspective, so that the Civilopedia reflects what the player actually sees in-game.

Also, moving the Wonder around might mess up any Hero units and/or special buildings tied to that culture. You can't move Culture (English) all the way to Rifling (for the Redcoat) without turning Robin Hood into a useless military unit.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The problem isn't the Wonder, the problem is that having the Culture resource as a prerequisite for the unit adds a hidden tech prerequisite, and so the actual tech prerequisites for the unit need to reflect that. It would be like having a unit with a Matchlock tech prerequisite and a Steel resource prerequisite. I can see what you're saying, but I think you're arguing from a developer perspective and we're taking the player perspective, so that the Civilopedia reflects what the player actually sees in-game.

Also, moving the Wonder around might mess up any Hero units and/or special buildings tied to that culture. You can't move Culture (English) all the way to Rifling (for the Redcoat) without turning Robin Hood into a useless military unit.

Well I think its a bit more complex than that. for instance some cultures not only have a UU but a UB and/or Heroic Unit. So you may have 3 techs or more determining the stuff enabled by the overall culture.

Not to mention you may get some crazy circumstance where you trade with another civ for a culture resource but for whatever reason you do not have the tech it was enabled at but the tech that the unit was enabled at. Thus allowing you to get that culture unit but not the tech that Wonder was enabled at.

 

[Alex Costa]

Well I think its a bit more complex than that. for instance some cultures not only have a UU but a UB and/or Heroic Unit. So you may have 3 techs or more determining the stuff enabled by the overall culture.

Not to mention you may get some crazy circumstance where you trade with another civ for a culture resource but for whatever reason you do not have the tech it was enabled at but the tech that the unit was enabled at. Thus allowing you to get that culture unit but not the tech that Wonder was enabled at.

Actually I don't understand the reason why Culture is a resource but that's just me.

 

[ls612]

Actually I don't understand the reason why Culture is a resource but that's just me.

So that you can have more than one of them. The whole idea was that way back in the day Hydro wanted to make the UU system more interesting, so instead of every civ getting a UU, there were "embassies" added (now called Cultures) which require a "native Culture" (which is based on your civ), and two resources in the City Vicinity. That allowed you to build the Culture Wonder, which gives a Culture resource to all cities on the trade route. That Culture resource unlocks Culture Units.

If you play with the Assimilation gameoption you can get other Native cultures by conquering other civs, thus unlocking new cultures.

 

[Alex Costa]

So that you can have more than one of them. The whole idea was that way back in the day Hydro wanted to make the UU system more interesting, so instead of every civ getting a UU, there were "embassies" added (now called Cultures) which require a "native Culture" (which is based on your civ), and two resources in the City Vicinity. That allowed you to build the Culture Wonder, which gives a Culture resource to all cities on the trade route. That Culture resource unlocks Culture Units.

If you play with the Assimilation gameoption you can get other Native cultures by conquering other civs, thus unlocking new cultures.

Sounds good but I think we should defenatly look on diverging them. BTW this is a change that won't hurt much. The Impi could defenatly be moved one tech further from Stone Spears to Warfare to be at same tech as Culture Zulu.