C2C - Units

[ls612]

Sounds good but I think we should defenatly look on diverging them. BTW this is a change that won't hurt much. The Impi could defenatly be moved one tech further from Stone Spears to Warfare to be at same tech as Culture Zulu.

I have no problem with that, but we should be moving the Wonders around IMO and having the units follow, not the other way around. I agree with Hydro, the Wonder and the Units should have the same prereqs.

 

[Alex Costa]

I have no problem with that, but we should be moving the Wonders around IMO and having the units follow, not the other way around. I agree with Hydro, the Wonder and the Units should have the same prereqs.

Yes that but I do agree on Culture (Zulu) being at warfare. The Zulu were known for being very warfare like.

 

[Flinx]

You do not need to look at the cultures to be trapped by hidden prereqs.

One of the most popular one are The Pyramids.
First shown at MASONRY, needs BRICK or STONE or MARBLE and FURNITURE and SCULPTURES.
Next you see it at SCULPTURES (tech).
To get SCULPTURES (resource) you need a sculpture workshop, also shown at SCULPTURES (tech)
Only downside: your sculpture workshop needs a trading post, which is enabled via TRADE (tech).

I do explicitly not complain about the prereqs as described before, i just wanted to show that we already have a lot of interdependencies which are not obvious at once, whether you look from a developer side (or modder) or as a casual gamer.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The purpose of the Units being at a different tech than the wonders was to show what type of weapons they were using. Such as Impi using Spears and thus at Spear Making.

And if you somehow had Spear Making but not Warfare tech and the traded for Zulu culture then you could still make Impi without knowing Warfare tech.

If the Impi were moved to Warfare and you got Zulu culture and had Spear Making then you would ask, "Why can't I make an Impi even though its a type of Stone Spearman unit and I have the Zulu culture?"

This is why they are at separate techs.

You do not need to look at the cultures to be trapped by hidden prereqs.

One of the most popular one are The Pyramids.
First shown at MASONRY, needs BRICK or STONE or MARBLE and FURNITURE and SCULPTURES.
Next you see it at SCULPTURES (tech).
To get SCULPTURES (resource) you need a sculpture workshop, also shown at SCULPTURES (tech)
Only downside: your sculpture workshop needs a trading post, which is enabled via TRADE (tech).

I do explicitly not complain about the prereqs as described before, i just wanted to show that we already have a lot of interdependencies which are not obvious at once, whether you look from a developer side (or modder) or as a casual gamer.

However you CAN trade for Sculptures resource before you can make them yourself. That assuming another culture has sculptures tech and is willing to trade with you.

 

[Alex Costa]

The purpose of the Units being at a different tech than the wonders was to show what type of weapons they were using. Such as Impi using Spears and thus at Spear Making.

And if you somehow had Spear Making but not Warfare tech and the traded for Zulu culture then you could still make Impi without knowing Warfare tech.

If the Impi were moved to Warfare and you got Zulu culture and had Spear Making then you would ask, "Why can't I make an Impi even though its a type of Stone Spearman unit and I have the Zulu culture?"

This is why they are at separate techs.



However you CAN trade for Sculptures resource before you can make them yourself. That assuming another culture has sculptures tech and is willing to trade with you.

Hydro I realize that but you do know Writing (correct me if I am wrong?) still unlocks tech trading. And I bet those techs are pre-requisites for writing. And isn't Zulu culture at warfare tech? Spear Making is required for Warfare so that makes the Zulu example not the best example overall.

 

[Vokarya]

Well I think its a bit more complex than that. for instance some cultures not only have a UU but a UB and/or Heroic Unit. So you may have 3 techs or more determining the stuff enabled by the overall culture.

Not to mention you may get some crazy circumstance where you trade with another civ for a culture resource but for whatever reason you do not have the tech it was enabled at but the tech that the unit was enabled at. Thus allowing you to get that culture unit but not the tech that Wonder was enabled at.

That makes more sense, but for some reason, I don't think you can trade a resource if you only have one of it -- or maybe it's just that the AI won't trade away its only copy of a resource. So I think we need a mechanic that allows for a second copy of a culture resource to appear if we go this route.

On a second note, can you trade for a resource if you haven't reached its reveal tech yet? Like trading for Sculptures if you don't have Sculpture tech yet? That seems really strange if you can, since if you don't know what something is it would be really hard to value it.

 

[ls612]

Hydro I realize that but you do know Writing (correct me if I am wrong?) still unlocks tech trading. And I bet those techs are pre-requisites for writing. And isn't Zulu culture at warfare tech? Spear Making is required for Warfare so that makes the Zulu example not the best example overall.

What if you don't use Start as Minors though? I agree with you that having redundancies in unit and building prereqs is bad, but we need to consider many different situations.

 

[Alex Costa]

What if you don't use Start as Minors though? I agree with you that having redundancies in unit and building prereqs is bad, but we need to consider many different situations.

That doesn't make difference. Doesn't Writing still unlock tech trading still?

 

[ls612]

That doesn't make difference. Doesn't Writing still unlock tech trading still?

But you can trade resources earlier (including the Culture ones).

 

[Raven Destroyer]

But you can trade resources earlier (including the Culture ones).

Question why would you trade Cultures as they only come as a Single thing? think AI might disagree with my logic idk haven't tried it yet

Also i noticed that at the end of the Medieval period begin Renaissance there is a slight gap (huge if a civ is a bit behind ) with the first Gunpowder units being a though nut to crack with a lot of the mid-late Medieval units (short of a deathstack of shooting things and siege weapons )
i've had a period of warfare in my game me being second against the number 1 (mostly due to Tech difference) where while i had the upper hand and on the attack i had a pain in my rear from the amount of guns pointed at my face
also i must state you guys done a good job creating a Siege engine loving AI my enemy liked to throw them per dozen (or two) at my face (needless to say even 100 units where reduced to pulp and crying for their mothers in a single turn )

 

[ls612]

Question why would you trade Cultures as they only come as a Single thing? think AI might disagree with my logic idk haven't tried it yet

So far I haven't noticed the AI giving away its Culture resources in trades, but that would be something to look at if it happens.

 

[Sgtslick]

The Pirate's Galley unit appears as a pink ball, obviously some kind of graphics problem.

 

[BlueGenie]

Suggestion:
Make the maximum National Unit amounts scale with map size.

Having a maximum of 15 on a giant or bigger map is, well, just a drop in the ocean. Same goes for the Hunter variant units. 5 on a big map is nothing really.

I do realize that it might make them less special though in my opinion it doesn't make it less special to have 30 National Units on a Gigantic map than having 15 of the same unit on a small map.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

Suggestion:
Make the maximum National Unit amounts scale with map size.

Having a maximum of 15 on a giant or bigger map is, well, just a drop in the ocean. Same goes for the Hunter variant units. 5 on a big map is nothing really.

I do realize that it might make them less special though in my opinion it doesn't make it less special to have 30 National Units on a Gigantic map than having 15 of the same unit on a small map.

Cheers

Hm, interesting idea. I think that 15 is pretty good for big maps personally, it makes them more of an elite brigade than a civ-wide replacement unit.

 

[BlueGenie]

Hm, interesting idea. I think that 15 is pretty good for big maps personally, it makes them more of an elite brigade than a civ-wide replacement unit.

I don't think it would be a civ-wide replacement anyway. Having even as much as 50 on the largest map with capabilities of 50 cities or more would still require more than 1 per city to make it a civ-wide replacement. In the context of attack units, maybe, but in the context of city-defending units it would not. Even in the attack context you might need 25 units on every front and if you have more than 2 fronts it's still not a civ-wide replacement.

I'm not really thinking of up to 50 units anyway, more like 30-40 at most, perhaps +4 per map size.
How many map sized do we have now anyway? Tiny, Duel, Small, Standard, Large, Huge, Giant, Gigantic, Humongous? 9 sizes so from 4 to 36, and for Hunters maybe +1 per size, so from 1 to 9.

I'd rather have that than what I do now on larger maps: Remove limits for National Units.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

I don't think it would be a civ-wide replacement anyway. Having even as much as 50 on the largest map with capabilities of 50 cities or more would still require more than 1 per city to make it a civ-wide replacement. In the context of attack units, maybe, but in the context of city-defending units it would not. Even in the attack context you might need 25 units on every front and if you have more than 2 fronts it's still not a civ-wide replacement.

I'm not really thinking of up to 50 units anyway, more like 30-40 at most, perhaps +4 per map size.
How many map sized do we have now anyway? Tiny, Duel, Small, Standard, Large, Huge, Giant, Gigantic, Humongous? 9 sizes so from 4 to 36, and for Hunters maybe +1 per size, so from 1 to 9.

I'd rather have that than what I do now on larger maps: Remove limits for National Units.

Cheers

Code-wise it is a rather easy change, but it is a rather large system change for gameplay, so I'd like to see others' opinions on this before changing it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

A simple % modifier would be useful.

Question for you ls612... where would one put such a tag for mapsize modifiers? I was looking for it the other day and I may have given up the search without giving it a full effort but I couldn't figure out where to put it! lol

 

[strategyonly]

Suggestion:
Make the maximum National Unit amounts scale with map size.

Having a maximum of 15 on a giant or bigger map is, well, just a drop in the ocean. Same goes for the Hunter variant units. 5 on a big map is nothing really.

I do realize that it might make them less special though in my opinion it doesn't make it less special to have 30 National Units on a Gigantic map than having 15 of the same unit on a small map.

Cheers

But also if you do it by map size (at least to me) you'd have to re-do each percentage then for a cost modifier for that than also, the more there is the MORE cost it would be to maintain such a stack/(company). I believe right now 15 is a Platoon size stack. Then once it gets into four or more platoons, it becomes a Company Size.(which in essence is a NEW civ.)

I think PLANs need to be done before anything really results from this intent, or is that just me NOT thinking again.

EDIT: One other thing i noticed was that the AI logic is ALOT better NOW than it ever was, they are building town/cities as fast as they can and going over their limits all the time, and as fast as you can make a city, THEY try to CUT you off getting as close to you as possible and building their own cities around you, and i mean fast now. (see attached i took out a different civ's city and as soon as i did Korea came along and started putting cities right by MY new city.)pic1

btw is CFC getting slower again or is anyone else having problems with connections not working REAL fast??

 

[ls612]

A simple % modifier would be useful.

Question for you ls612... where would one put such a tag for mapsize modifiers? I was looking for it the other day and I may have given up the search without giving it a full effort but I couldn't figure out where to put it! lol

Don't. Instead, calculate the size of the Standard mapsize (by multiplying the dimensions) and then take the ratio of the current mapsize to that. Then the tag in the UnitClassInfos will be the limit for Standard, and no new tags are needed If you absolutely have to though new tags like that would go in the WorldSizeInfos.

I still don't know though if making NUs scale by mapsize is a good idea though. I'm going to look at Civ Fuehrer's Nuke tags and see if I can do those next.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Good answer. Thanks