C2C - Units

[Il Principe]

As we have discovered if a civ has no cities and no units that can build cities at the end of a turn then all its units are removed from the game and it is a dead civ.

Yeah that is problematic then

 

[Yudishtira]

As we have discovered if a civ has no cities and no units that can build cities at the end of a turn then all its units are removed from the game and it is a dead civ.

Unless you have "Require Complete Kills"... (The Apache survived as one Coyote Runner in my game for a couple of centuries )

 

[strategyonly]

As we have discovered if a civ has no cities and no units that can build cities at the end of a turn then all its units are removed from the game and it is a dead civ.

Not true, at least in the game i am playing, the Korean Provisional Empire has no cities and no units but it keeps alive and pops-up(Revolting) at least once every 20-30ish turns or so??? Then the ones that have Assimilation also come back but not as often, maybe once every 100ish turns.

 

[Nimek]

@SO

Do you have require complete kills option on? If yes then some units of that civ should exists but you are not aware of it.

 

[strategyonly]

@SO

Do you have require complete kills option on? If yes then some units of that civ should exists but you are not aware of it.

Nope . . . .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

iirc Revolution reuses dead nations before using new ones.

So we may be able to get Nomadic Start to work if we have no units that can build cities if we insist on Complete Kills being on. Interesting.

 

[DRJ]

iirc Revolution reuses dead nations before using new ones.

So we may be able to get Nomadic Start to work if we have no units that can build cities if we insist on Complete Kills being on. Interesting.

Are you suggesting that even a single left-over stonethrower unit could evolve into a tribe after he would have collected enough yields over some time?


Actually I really like the idea that fleeing units could try to start somewhere else anew if they are not hunted down^^

Or should this lonely unit at least have to capture a worketype unit first or winnign a fight against a city/omad camp (like Romans stealing women to fould their first city?)


Maybe units should be able to receive a male/female property? female skills or percentage of unit would provide certain boni while male skillz would be provided to units consisting of mainly males (like early hunters?) A unit that has over 25% females/female skills could maybe attempt to found a new tribe over time...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No, I was suggesting that it may be possible without dll changes to make the nomad unit not be albe to settle but upgrade to a unit that can settle at a later date. However it does not work

 

[strategyonly]

@Hydro, how about we move "The Judge" to someplace where he can be finally utilized, then when you work out the details, you can move him back if you want, but right now he is jus taking up space, with nothing for him to do until ALOT of techs later. thx . . . SO

 

[DRJ]

@Hydro, how about we move "The Judge" to someplace where he can be finally utilized, then when you work out the details, you can move him back if you want, but right now he is jus taking up space, with nothing for him to do until ALOT of techs later. thx . . . SO

Yeah about the judge what about giving him -1 unhappiness if he is present in a city?
Only one judge can be in a city at the same time per 10 pop.

i think this would help a bit as long as he is not really useful.

After all, judges do help people to find justice. A victim would be unhappy if there would be no fair judgement on the crime and what a judge basically does is on the one hand be the person with the experience to offer a fair "deal" so the victim does not feel neglected in its suffering and on the other hand the judge tries to "help" the convict if there is one to understand his/her wrongdoings.

Imo, there are too few philosophically and psychologically educated judges out there. The law itself is still too dusty and strict, much like the old testament.

We live in a modern society with archaic rules dwarfing our optimal progress and happiness...
We still have ancient stereotypes being propagated by the rich and acted on by the poor; the whole conglomerate of lawmakers, law enforcers and the "industrialisation" of the law is a shame! Especially benefiting the owners of private prisons, the same owners, probably, who spent some money to influence the lawmakers in the first place and also gifted new police cars the year before, while at the same time conditioning the consumerist sheep to buy their other factories products which the masses "have to have to be part of todays society", even driving some people to stupid, punishable behaviour to be able to do so.
So if either the rich-profiting laws are respected they win or if the law isn't respected they also win as the prison complex gives profits.
The punishment is paid for by the "rightdoing" sheep into the owners pockets.
So at the end the sheep are unhappy about the unsolidary black sheep but don't realize their shepard is a vampire-wolf slowly drinking their blood, no matter how they act. ;-)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro, how about we move "The Judge" to someplace where he can be finally utilized, then when you work out the details, you can move him back if you want, but right now he is jus taking up space, with nothing for him to do until ALOT of techs later. thx . . . SO

:/ I am open to ideas for early game ordinances/laws/royal decrees.

 

[Azurian]

:/ I am open to ideas for early game ordinances/laws/royal decrees.

I am going to summarized the Code of Hammurabi.

Beautifucation -helps keep the town looking neat and tidy.

Early bird- Everyone must wakeup at a certain hour in the morning to work.

Building Codes

Zoning

Historic preservation -n endeavor that seeks to preserve, conserve and protect buildings, objects, landscapes or other artifacts of historical significance.

divorce

paternity

marriage

Military service

Contracts

Inheritance

 

[Nimek]

First I want to do on units is

Add penalty in city attack to archers and chariots
Add penalty on hunters and explorers vs combatants

I will start tommorow.

 

[Thunderbrd]

First I want to do on units is

Add penalty in city attack to archers and chariots
Add penalty on hunters and explorers vs combatants

I will start tommorow.

Stop.

I've added that penalty on explorers (hunters ARE explorers btw... you meant scouts, the other half of the explorer combat class realm - so simply adding a -50% penalty vs Combatants to explorers affects both hunters and scouts equally) as a proof of concept to my combat class modifiers changes that will be included in my next update. Additionally, after today's merge you will be able to add that first modifier via the combat classes alone by applying the modifier on their combat class objects.

Also, not sure if you'll want that city attack penalty for chariots to go on the Wheeled (which later doesn't make as much sense) or Mounted but I'm kinda thinking neither one would be appropriate. Why would chariots have a hard time fighting in city streets? You'd think they'd be BETTER at it actually... It's nicely groomed roadways they're fighting on which is exactly their best territory for battle.

 

[DRJ]

Also, not sure if you'll want that city attack penalty for chariots to go on the Wheeled (which later doesn't make as much sense) or Mounted but I'm kinda thinking neither one would be appropriate. Why would chariots have a hard time fighting in city streets? You'd think they'd be BETTER at it actually... It's nicely groomed roadways they're fighting on which is exactly their best territory for battle.

All due respect but you can't be serious here? Have you ever seen the outlines of ancient cities? Hardly 2 streets that were able to let teams of horses through + the forum (but this was full of booths); even these passes were easily able to be barricaded, just jack-knife one cart and hundreds of chariots or other horsemen, unable to turn, are jammed up and easy prey for the troops on the roofs. City fighting with horses was just not possible before the french invented broad boulevards for dragoons and even then barricades were still quite effective.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Stop.

I've added that penalty on explorers (hunters ARE explorers btw... you meant scouts, the other half of the explorer combat class realm - so simply adding a -50% penalty vs Combatants to explorers affects both hunters and scouts equally) as a proof of concept to my combat class modifiers changes that will be included in my next update. Additionally, after today's merge you will be able to add that first modifier via the combat classes alone by applying the modifier on their combat class objects.

Also, not sure if you'll want that city attack penalty for chariots to go on the Wheeled (which later doesn't make as much sense) or Mounted but I'm kinda thinking neither one would be appropriate. Why would chariots have a hard time fighting in city streets? You'd think they'd be BETTER at it actually... It's nicely groomed roadways they're fighting on which is exactly their best territory for battle.

Actually... there's a game balance issue with adding the -50% vs Combatants on Explorer units right now until we've got a couple other things in place (Scout Withdrawal and Taunting which will be included in a major xml update next cycle.) After those are in place I'll gladly add the -50% vs Combatants to Explorers. If we weren't about to enter a freeze I'd do it now and then push to get the withdrawal stuff in place but I won't have time to do all that so its gotta wait.

 

[Thunderbrd]

All due respect but you can't be serious here? Have you ever seen the outlines of ancient cities? Hardly 2 streets that were able to let teams of horses through + the forum (but this was full of booths); even these passes were easily able to be barricaded, just jack-knife one cart and hundreds of chariots or other horsemen, unable to turn, are jammed up and easy prey for the troops on the roofs. City fighting with horses was just not possible before the french invented broad boulevards for dragoons and even then barricades were still quite effective.

By that logic, and envisioning the scenario as you're putting it, perhaps the mechanism should be put in place by the road type buildings. Make this a property of the city rather than a property of the combat class. Put the new Defense VS Combat Class modifiers to use on those as appropriate thus something like:

1st Road Type: +25% Defense vs Mounted, +25% Defense vs Wheeled (which for chariots would then double up)
2nd Road type: +20% Defense vs Mounted, +20% Defense vs Wheeled
3rd Road type: +15% Defense vs Mounted, +15% Defense vs Wheeled
and then actually progress this into the inverse for wheeled units once larger roads make wheeled combat easier rather than harder in cities.

The building tag for this would be: UnitCombatDefenseAgainstModifiers

 

[DRJ]

Cudos! You found the perfect and elegant solution!

 

[Nimek]

Chariots has big bonus against meele but it should work only on open fields not in cities and forests.

Your entire cc modifiers sounds great but first of all we need tweak all units to place it in apropirate ccs and make guidelines for adding new units.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Cudos! You found the perfect and elegant solution!

Would you be willing to at least plan out those changes for the specific road type buildings then? Would make it much easier to thereafter implement the xml.

Chariots has big bonus against meele but it should work only on open fields not in cities and forests.

A little superfluous and very programming difficult I think. Easier to simply have the bonus against melee and then counter it with the above noted penalties from cities and terrain/feature penalties. It would make them even weaker in cities and specific terrains against non-melee yes but it doesn't require making special complex tags for such a specific case.

Your entire cc modifiers sounds great but first of all we need tweak all units to place it in apropirate ccs and make guidelines for adding new units.

True. There are a FEW modifiers I just included to show that the structure works and implement some suggested adjustments on a combat class wide scale. BUT it won't be used much more than a few things here and there until the CC plans have been completed and applied to all units. Then we should also take a look at the units we have and modifiers we've applied to them on the unit level and see if there's anything we can move over to combat class to make things easier on the system and on future unit designs. That's a bit of a project in and of itself that I'll be looking for someone (perhaps you?) to plot out for us.