C2C - Wonder Civs

[EldrinFal]

@Eldrin: I really don't feel its overpowered or illogical what the great farmer currently is. It takes the guy forever and a day to do his job and you can only have one at a time. Furthermore, its completely rational when you look at real world spread of resources and grains and animals in use etc. In fact, to be more closely connected to reality, we'd have to ease up on the poor guy... I mean he really works hard to do what he does and since its not a reversable issue, you can sometimes end up making decisions you regret with him.

The problem is that we have a yes/no resource system, not a volumetric one. And if we start looking at it from that angle and looking for solutions there rather than trying to 'nerf' the farmer, I think we'll see what needs to be done eventually.

Without the farmer and units like him, we become at the mercy of chance for determining cultural foundations and I'd like to give us more strategic choice than less.

I know it is realistic (to a degree). But sometimes to avoid breaking a game or for the sake of balance, you have to put limitations on things. Just like limits on "National Units" for example.

You also have to accept that not every crop in existence can grow well in any kind of temperature or humidity in the world. You won't see Coconuts growing in the middle of Canada. So something has to give no matter which side of the coin you look at.

 

[Praetyre]

Would it not be possible to set biometric restrictions on the planting abilities of the Great Farmer?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think that should be possible Praetyre... we just have no quick fix solution to set that up is the problem. We have xml to define missions, right? So we just need some xml fields for those missions along the same lines as we have for building prereqs, ones to govern terrain and climate. Shouldn't be too problematic but yeah, time consuming to set up sure.

So the answer is there right in front of us but would just take patience to implement. In the meantime, I'm happier to wait through the slight irrationality than to do away with the Farmer. The other problem is in trade and as we develop out the goods trading mechanism being discussed in the Guilds thread, I think we'll find the answer there. Again, in the meantime, its by no means 'breaking' the mod in any way I can see except to simply make trading a little less active. I don't worry too much about micromanaging trade with nations that will innevitably become enemies down the road anyhow. (that'd be all of them of course )

 

[Vokarya]

Is there room for one more culture? I had an idea last night:

Culture (Crusader States). This would represent the short-lived states formed by the Crusaders of Europe in the Middle East.

Requirements:
Cultures: Culture (European), Culture (Middle Eastern)
Technology: Papacy
Terrain in city vicinity: Desert
Resource in city vicinity: Incense
Required Civic: State Church OR Free Church OR Intolerant

Elite Unit: Crusader (same as produced by King Richard's Crusade--would need to give these units a hammer cost).
Heroes: Can get names from this Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_principal_Crusaders
Wonders: None currently, but I have a "Krak des Chevaliers" wonder in mind that should definitely benefit.

 

[Praetyre]

I think King Richard's Crusade handles that event better, TBH.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree with Praetyre on one hand, where it does seem nicely reflected there with that wonder. However, I think with some research, it may well be shown this would be a pretty valid culture idea. Might take just a bit more work to flesh it out... maybe what you mean is better expressed as Teutonic Knights or something along those lines. Such cultural forces were indeed very strong during the middle ages and I can see how some qualifiers and benefits could be worked out there. Might even make more use of the Crusader unit actually...

 

[Praetyre]

I've often thought an 1000 AD GEM scenario could be quite interesting for this very reason. I also miss the Fundamentalist Guerilla unit RoM used to have (And for that matter, I'm not sure what's happened to the UN units mod since the Mission is still there but the units aren't and I've not tested the Mission yet), which provided a broader opportunity for budding Ayatollah's to send their [Religion X] soldiers onward off to war. Just think of what they could do with some of the religion-specific promotions...

Back on topic, though still regarding lost units, how about bringing back that incredibly cool-looking Technical unit for Culture (Somali)? It'd presumably be a coastal African culture, though not based on wood resources like the Congo ones will be. It would be also be on the first modern-era unique units for Africa, but I know next to nothing about Somali (or sub-Saharan African) history, so there might be another unique unit to compensate that could serve during the iron or steel ages.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree that the UN units should be put back in. Too bad Zappara and/or Afforess had to remove so much stuff.

As for African cultures, I have a bunch coming. Just got to sit down and make them all.

 

[strategyonly]

Right now, dont expect me to put units in them till after the new year(maybe later), and dont make them as obscure as some of them are now, i have never even heard of half of these you are presently making for cultures?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Right now, dont expect me to put units in them till after the new year(maybe later), and dont make them as obscure as some of them are now, i have never even heard of half of these you are presently making for cultures?

Which one don't you know?

 

[strategyonly]

Which one don't you know?

Never heard of these:

MAORI
INUIT
KLAMATH
NOOTKA

 

[Hydromancerx]

Never heard of these:

MAORI
INUIT
KLAMATH
NOOTKA

Maori
Native New Zealand people. Ever see the movie Whale Rider? They are the ones with the tattooed faces.

Inuit
Other known as Eskimos. I am not sure if either term is politically correct. They build igloos, have sled dogs an eat animals like whales and seals (maybe even some "Eskimo pies" ) .

Klamath
These I am not surprised you never heard of them. They are Native Americans from Oregon and northern California. I included them since they were one of the tribes in Age of Empires 3.

Nootka
Another tribe from Age of Empires 3 however these you should be familiar with since they are the Native Americans who build totem poles (most other Native Americans do not, despite the stereotype of totem poles and teepees). They live in the Pacific Northwest and have haida style art.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@HydromancerX, I am tying to change the Topkapi Palace wonder to give a free base culture building in the city for each vassal. How do I know what base culture building belongs to the vassal?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@HydromancerX, I am tying to change the Topkapi Palace wonder to give a free base culture building in the city for each vassal. How do I know what base culture building belongs to the vassal?

Then it should give a free BUILDINGCLASS_CULTURE_HUMAN to every city since the UBs all are based on that and would replace it with their own unique culture building such as BUILDING_CULTURE_AFRICAN or BUILDING_CULTURE_ASIAN.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Then it should give a free BUILDINGCLASS_CULTURE_HUMAN to every city since the UBs all are based on that and would replace it with their own unique culture building such as BUILDING_CULTURE_AFRICAN or BUILDING_CULTURE_ASIAN.

What I have is Culture African. My nation conquers a bunch of cities which can build Culture European, but at the end of the war all those cities go to my vassal. What I want is to build a free Culture European in my city with the Topkapi Palace. Then when I vassal an nation with Cultural Asian I get a free one in that city also.

Currently the whole second level cultures and heroes requires that you capture and keep cities, which I very rarely do.

 

[Hydromancerx]

What I have is Culture African. My nation conquers a bunch of cities which can build Culture European, but at the end of the war all those cities go to my vassal. What I want is to build a free Culture European in my city with the Topkapi Palace. Then when I vassal an nation with Cultural Asian I get a free one in that city also.

Currently the whole second level cultures and heroes requires that you capture and keep cities, which I very rarely do.

You would need BUILDINGCLASS_GOOD_EUROPEAN then. Its given for free by BUILDING_CULTURE_EUROPEAN. I have no idea how you would get a free good based on the nation you vassalized.

Its been talked about that specific culture buildings such as Culture (Aztec) or Culture (French) will become wonders instead and then produce an Aztec or a French resource. That way you could demand your vassal give you one of those resouces if they built say the Culture (Aztec) or Culture (French) wonders.

I am not sure what to do about the Topkapi Palace with this new culture system, they do not give well with each other.

 

[charlesb96]

Maori
Native New Zealand people. Ever see the movie Whale Rider? They are the ones with the tattooed faces.

Inuit
Other known as Eskimos. I am not sure if either term is politically correct. They build igloos, have sled dogs an eat animals like whales and seals (maybe even some "Eskimo pies" ) .

Klamath
These I am not surprised you never heard of them. They are Native Americans from Oregon and northern California. I included them since they were one of the tribes in Age of Empires 3.

Nootka
Another tribe from Age of Empires 3 however these you should be familiar with since they are the Native Americans who build totem poles (most other Native Americans do not, despite the stereotype of totem poles and teepees). They live in the Pacific Northwest and have haida style art.

Hope that helps.

Perhaps instead of the Klamath, you might go with the Nez Perce and Chief Joseph. He gave the US Cavalry a good run for their money and is from the North West. Ever hear of the quote "I will fight no more, forever."?

 

[Hydromancerx]

So I have a big changes up my sleeve but I need some help.

You see one problem people have been saying with the civs and the civ cultures is when they go and play say Greece they do not instantly get Greek culture.

(I am not sure about his map above.)

To solve this I have a radical plan originally made by johny smith and this Fabula Terra project. As you can see from the link, he has a similar idea of cultures evolving over time.

He had some idea such as this ...

Well I will explain what my initial thinking is and perhaps it is flawed. I was hoping to balance clearly strong nations in each region. Then later try to find uniqueness.

1. West Europe
France,England,Spain,Portugal for example

2. Central Europe
Germany,Rome, Scandinavia, Greece(maybe should be East)

3. East Europe
Poland, Russia(could be many forms of Russia), and in general Slavic countries

4. North Africa
Carthage, Berbers, Egypt, and anything in on the Northern Coast

5. East Africa
Ethiopia, Horn of Africa, and anything south on the eastern side of the continent

6. West Africa
Niger river area. Mali, Songhai, Ghana, and anything south along the coast to the present border of Namibia and South Africa.

7. Middle East
Levant, Fertile Crescent, Anatolia, from Black Sea and Caucasus mountains on the north, Aegean Sea and Africa on the West, Persia being outside of it on the East.

8. Central Asia
Persia to Kazakhstan. Anything that was inhabited by Iranian languages speakers at one point.

9. South Asia
The Indian Subcontinent, and areas that were effected by the Indian culture.

10. East Asia
Southeast Asia and China(excluding Mongolian majority areas and Manchuria)

11. North Asia
Siberia, Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea, and Japan

12. Oceania
Australia, New Guinea, and Pacific Islands. This is really going to be weak in comparison.

13. West North America
Western cultures as in the Southwest USA, Northwest USA and Western Canada, Californian tribes, and Western Arctic North America.

14 East North America
Mound builders later Southeast USA Natives, Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux(could possibly go to the West), Eastern Arctic North America

15. Mesoamerica
Mexico, Central America, and include the Caribbean.

16. South America
Andean cultures, and needing to guess on some Eastern South American cultures.

Well that is the general idea I had. It may be a bad balance. The one really weak region is Oceania. The tech trees though would be a little more perhaps to make differences in West, Central, and East Europe because of being artificially placed. If this is not interesting please tell me.

My idea is to take part of that idea and work it with our culture system. Rather than specific playable civs there will be regional civs you start as.

I am not sure how specific or general we should go. Here is a more specific regional map of North America.

North America
1. Arctic
2. Northwest Coast
3. Plateau
4. California
5. Great Basin
6. Southwest
7. Great Plains
8. Eastern Woodlands
9. Southeast
10. Central America
11. Caribbean

But then again Johny has some good ideas ...

Spoiler :

Tehuacan--------------------------Neolithic Central America
----San Lorenzo(Olmec)----------------Copper Mesoamerica
--------Tres Zapotes(Olmec)---------------Bronze Mesoamerica
------------Tula(Toltec)-----------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Tzintzuntzan(Tarascans)-----------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Tenochtitlan(Aztec)----------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
------------Teotihuacan-----------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------El Tajin(Totonac)------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Cholua----------------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
--------Kaminaljuyu(Maya)-----------------Bronze Mesoamerica
------------San Jose Mogote(Zapotec)---------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Tilantongo(Mixtec)-----------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Monte Alban(Zapotec)--------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
------------Tikal(Maya)------------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Mayapan(Maya)--------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Tayasal(Maya)---------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica

West Europe(The successful colonies of Rome and Celtic held areas)
------Northwest Europe
-----------Netherlands, Northern France(modern France later in game) and Britain
------Southwest Europe
-----------Iberia, Southern France

North Europe(The classic idea of the area of Barbarians against Rome)
------Northcentral Europe
-----------Scandinavia, Poland and Germany
------Northeast Europe
-----------North Russia(modern Russia later in game), Finland, Baltic States

South Europe(Classical idea of Rome and Greek civilization)
------SouthCentral Europe
-----------Italy, former Yugoslavia minus Macedonia, Albania
------Southeast Europe
----------Greece, Romania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, South Russia, Macedonia

Central Asia
-------North
------------Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan
-------South
------------Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan

South Asia
-------West
------------West India, Tibet, Nepal
-------East
------------East India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, maybe some of Indonesia

East Asia
-------North
------------Modern China minus Nei Mongol, Liaoning, Jilin, Heilongjiang, Tibet(Xizang)

-------South
------------Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia. Philippines, maybe some of Indonesia

North Asia
------West
-----------Mongolia, Nei Mongol(China), West Siberia
------East
-----------Korea, Japan, Liaoning(China), Jilin(China), Heilongjiang(China), East Siberia

Central Asia
-------North
------------Scythians
-------South
------------Iran(or in the West called Persia)

South Asia(I need to change this somehow probably)
-------West(Aryan conquered areas)
------------Mauryan
-------East(Non Aryan conquered Aryan areas in the beginning)
------------Something like Vijayanagara Empire( South and East India)

East Asia
-------North
------------China
-------South
------------Khmer

North Asia
------West
-----------Mongolia
------East
-----------Korea and Japan

Middle East
------North---One civilization from this area and multiple city-states
-----------West
-----------East
------South---One civilization from this area and multiple city-states
-----------North
-----------South

----Copper--Humaitá(East South America)
--------Bronze--Umbu(Coastal)
------------Iron--Tupi-guarani(North)
------------Iron--Itararé(South)
--------Bronze--Ananatuba(Amazon)
------------Iron--Kuhikugu(Upper)
------------Iron--Marajoara(Lower)

----Copper--Humaitá(East South America)
--------Bronze--Umbu(Coastal)
------------Iron--Tupi-guarani(North)
----------------Antiquity--Tupi
----------------Antiquity--Mbaya-Guaicurus
------------Iron--Taquara/Itararé(South)
----------------Antiquity--Mapuche
----------------Antiquity--Toba
--------Bronze--Ananatuba(Amazon)
------------Iron--Kuhikugu(Upper)
----------------Antiquity--???
----------------Antiquity--???
------------Iron--Marajoara(Lower)
----------------Antiquity--???

He also proposed each civ get their own tech tree. As such with ClassicThunder's Civilization Specific Tech Trees. I am not sure if we should go that far.

In short I would like to bring up all this stuff and pick up discussing where they left off. its a good idea and has a likelihood to turn into something for C2C. My goal would be to creatre a new set of basic civs you can choose from that were not specifically named. Such as no more Aztec civ but "Mesoamerican" civ would include Aztec and Mayan leaderheads.

How far we want to go with this and the specific I ask you guys. Please give feedback.

 

[Praetyre]

I very, very much like this. It breaks my suspension of disbelief far less to have a civilization that looks and acts like, say, Haplogroup L2, the Pengtoushan culture, the Proto Indo Europeans or the Beaker People in the Prehistoric era rather than, say, Assyria, Ethiopia and England.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll consider and comment in a bit.