C3C Deity level training game !

bradleyfeanor said:
Is the philosophy slingshot a no-go due to the AI research rate?
Well, you tell me. these are the turns in which England got a tech :
turn 8 : Cer. Bur.
turn 10 : Bronze
turn 20 : Wheel
turn 24 : Masonry, from us
turn 25 : Warrior Code
turn 27 : Mysticism
turn 48 : Math
turn 49 : Writing
(currently turn 51)

bradleyfeanor said:
On swords, if you get someone else (like Sumer) into a war with England and send your troops in after they start to fight, then you can probably take several cities with around 8 swords (although I love to take around 4-8 catapults along when I play C3C). If only you and England are at war, you will probably need much more than that--unless you just want to take York and then give them peace. Since York is a hilltop city, catapults will be particularly useful.
Let's take worst case scenario : I'm behind in tech and don't have anything to offer to get an ally, so I'm on my own. The primary targets of a war would be York (incense) and London (Colossus). But to reduce chances of flipping, and since England occupies the only direction in which I can expand, I want to go for the whole kill. :hammer:
I have never used catapults before in warfare ! Didn't think they were really useful... Any good advice somewhere on how to use them ? You reckon i should launch my attack with about 16 swordsman and 6 catapults ??
 
I’m really hesitant to give advice on such big issues given that I am not looking at your game, but I will give it a shot and just trust you will dismiss it if you think its a bad idea.

My solo games are almost always Deity, and in games in which I am able to get Alph/Writing early, I am first to Philosophy more often than not. Sometimes I am able to get CoL first, or trade for it, but that does not happen as often. It looks like your AIs are moving along in tech pretty nicely, so going Philosophy is risky. Nevertheless, if you can research it in 16 turns or less (at max and taking into account growth), then I would go for it. If it is going to take more than 16 turns to research it, then I would go Lit, but I would not do 10% research because the Deity AIs will beat you to it. Hopefully, you will be able to use whichever tech you get to put someone at war with England (and pick up a few techs). This will also help prevent ending up on the bottom of an AI dogpile.

If you go it alone against England, I think I would attack with 9 swords and 6 catapults, making sure that more swords are on the way. That should be enough to get you York with about 7 swords left, and then you can pick off several of the AIs offensive units outside the city while you wait for a few reinforcements to arrive. When they do you can march on London. The reason I would attack early with a small force, is because I expect after you take about 3 cities you will be able to demand 1-2 more cities (or some techs) for peace. Then you can send your troops to take someone else while you wait for the 20 turns of peace to expire. If you prefer to immediately take London after York, then I expect you will need 13 healthy swords, and if London is also on a hill I would try to have 9 catapults.

In C3C, catapults (and all bombarding units) are extremely powerful because they attack cities much more effectively than they did in PTW. Not only do they allow your units to live longer (especially against fortified units and hilltop cities), but they indirectly help you get leaders because of the better survival and battle odds they create for your attacking units.

I believe there is an article on bombarding units in the War Academy, but they are pretty simple to use. Keep them all together in a stack (I usually have 6-8, any more than that and I build new stacks), and move them stacked with your offensive units. If I expect the AI to have a lot of offensive units, then I add two defensive units (such as spears) to the stack. Try to always keep your artillery near the front lines, because they are slow. Never leave them in a city that might flip, and remember that they cannot move into unroaded jungle, swamp or mountain terrain. On some maps, you have to plan for this and have workers building roads in terrain where you expect to send your catapults next.
 
Excellent advice ! :goodjob:
It's these kind of arithmetics where I need to develop better insight.
bradleyfeanor said:
I’m really hesitant to give advice on such big issues given that I am not looking at your game, but I will give it a shot and just trust you will dismiss it if you think its a bad idea.
Don't worry, I'll still use common sense and sound judgement of my own.
 
Another session played, and life is still great. That of england has a cloud of doom above it...

I currently have 6 swords, 1 spear and 4 warriors that will be upgraded if I get enough money together. I'm 9 turns from Literature, which means I will have researched it in about 26 turns.
In those next 9 turns, I'll have enough swords to attack York and spears to defend my outer cities. Waiting any longer to attack England would not be wise I think, since they already have mapmaking, which I desperately want for suicide galleys, and it also means I may have to defend other coastal cities. Further more, England is rather weak, and may get attacked soon by Sumer anyhow.
When I attack, I may be able to convince Rome or China to join me. China is a bit backwards, and neither would be able to do much substantial, leaving England as a prey to me only. Including Sumer in the war would make them too powerfull.
I won't be able to include catapults, however, since I don't have maths yet. Maybe I can trade for it after I get Literature, but at that moment the attack will already start...
Stay tuned ! :)
 
In every game I build at least a dozen catapults and upgrade them throughout. The nice thing is you won't need a barracks to build them. When attacking I bring along at least 3 per defender, and at least one defensive unit to guard them. Roads are essential for moving them, and can act as a huge force multiplier for defending the homelands.
 
End of the QSC ! (for the xOTM-insiders ;))
A lot has happened : in 1175 I was the first to get Literature. Techs were widely distributed amongst the AI, which gave me a lot of trading possibilities : I acquired CoL, Math, Poly, Philo, MapM, HB Riding and 193g in one turn. I could have bought Construction as well, but it was too expensive to buy from Rome, and since England had it as well...
after the trading I established embassies with Rome and China (didn't have money before the trading, otherwise would have done that first), but neither could be convinced to join me against England.

So next came my first Deity act of war : :ninja: War against England !
This war lasted only 5 turns, in which I gained York and London (with Colossus and Oracle :D), and auto-razed Hastings. That was enough for them to gift me construction, Warwick, Coventry and some gold for peace.
Oh, and in the last turn Rome and China declared war on each other. Spontaneously. :cool:

So... now I need a new plan. Suggestions are welcome...
I'm currently building some settlers to fill in a couple of voids. I'm also planning a couple of suicide-galleys. How long would my swords remain useful ? I'll have currency in 16t; I suppose the AI will get there before me, unless they make a detour via Republic or Monarchy.

I got the habbit over time to check on 'productivity' in the F11-screen to get an idea of how well I'm doing. Currently I'm 2nd. Once the expansion phase is over, it's all about how fast you can produce stuff - that's the logic behind it. Anyone else do this, or would you call this a misleading factor ? I'm 2nd in some other statistics too, and 1st in population, which tells me the 3 civ's I haven't met yet are probably not doing a very good job (they haven't reached the MA yet either).

I do think Sumer should be my next target, but I can't do it alone. I'll need something to convince Rome and China to join. Kish, right next to London has horses - those would be nice to start my golden age.

I'm rambling on here - gonna finish with some attachments and then go to :sleep: :sleep:.
 
To be complete, here are some QSC-stats for 1000BC :
- All AA techs, except currency, Republic and Monarchy
- 15 towns, 39 pop.
- 1 granary, 2 barracks, Oracle and Colossus
- 9 workers, 3 slaves, 3 warriors, 3 spears, 11 swords, 1 catapult
MapStat 2.9.0 gives me 10083 QSC-score.

And I forgot to mention : I'm saving every turn, so if anyone wants to look at a specific turn (e.g. the trading), just ask.
 
Nice opening war! I agree with Sumerian horses being your next target. Do you use crpMapStat? I suspect the risk is small, but you may want to use it to guard against culture flips in London.
 
Yep, I use MapStat. Been keeping an eye on London, but it's good you mention it. I should probably pull my troops out and just keep a warrior as MP.

For the moment I'm building settlers and galleys for suicide-runs. Any suggestions on how to tackle Sumer ? I'm thinking of a limited war, just to get the 'good' cities in the plains, and leave them the hills. I'd need to do that before they get pikes though...

Parrallel plot is to send out galleys and contact the remaining 3 civs, then instantly declare war on them (I suppose they're more backwards, since they don't show up as competitors in landmass or population in F8, and because I'm 'number2' in several stats in F11.
 
I would try very hard to get an AI to declare on Sumer. On the turn that happens, I would make sure London, York and workers near borders were covered by military units. Also have a few swords in the mountain S, SE of York. Hopefully, this would cause Sumer to send their offensive units toward the AI that declared on them. If not, I suspect the AI would go after Bergen-Op if London, York and workers were protected. This would allow your military on the mountain to pick them off. After 2 or 3 turns, I would move in to take the Sumerian cities I wanted.

I am not sure what you mean by instantly declaring on the other 3 AIs. Do you mean get them to declare on you for war happiness?
 
bradleyfeanor said:
I am not sure what you mean by instantly declaring on the other 3 AIs. Do you mean get them to declare on you for war happiness?
If I can get a suicide-galley over the ocean, I would first trade for techs and see if they are backwards or not. I suspect they are. If so, I can 'safely' declare war on them, and just stay at war without anything happening. When they grow tired, I might get a town or a tech in the peace deal. Main idea is to slow down their research. If they are advanced, I stay at peace and try to trade techs across the continents.

I haven't thought much about governements yet. I suppose Monarchy is the way to go ? :hmm:
 
I continued playing and wasn't really planning to stop so soon (turn 89), but something happened that I don't really understand.

First an update : One turn ago I declared war on Sumer. I didn't want to wait any longer, since I fear my swords may soon become obsolete. I took Kish this turn, and at the same time discovered that Carthage was just one ocean tile away from England. :eek:
I also got Rome to ally with me against Sumer, btw.
Also important : China built the Great Library.

Here's what I don't understand : Carthago has currency, we don't. I trade philosophy to Carthago for Currency and some gold. Now Carthage and me both know Currency. I expect China to know it as well, since they have the GL, but when I go to the trading screen, I can still sell currency to them. Is this because the turn has not yet finished (and they will learn it automatically when I finish my turn), or is it because China hasn't met Carthago yet (in which case I have the option not to trade) ?

Regardless of the answer above, I can get China to ally with me against Sumer if I sell them Currency, so I'll probably trade it.

And while we're here : any advice on how to tackle research in the MA ? I'm in the unexpected position where I'm in the tech lead, and I'm doubting between researching the upper branch, for trading low-priority techs to the AI, or researching the lower branch to get to MT asap. Remember I'd like to win this one by conquest... Any advice would be welcome here.
Thanx !
 
Ambiorix said:
Here's what I don't understand : Carthago has currency, we don't. I trade philosophy to Carthago for Currency and some gold. Now Carthage and me both know Currency. I expect China to know it as well, since they have the GL, but when I go to the trading screen, I can still sell currency to them. Is this because the turn has not yet finished (and they will learn it automatically when I finish my turn), or is it because China hasn't met Carthago yet (in which case I have the option not to trade) ?
Techs from the GL are always learned at the end of the turn. I always sell any technology they would get, even for a low price, or at the very least improve their attitude by giving it to them. If you have an embassy with China or Carthage, you should be able to see if they know each other.
 
Okay, here's the continuation :
i wasn't able to continue my war against Sumer. I even had to abandon Kish and make peace (breaking an alliance with Rome and China...) to prevent worse. I was able to reclaim the horses by founding a new city where Kish was.
Meanwhile we've also met India. Contacts with the new world are no longer our monopoly though, since England crossed the gap using the influence of their Great Lighthouse.

I could use some advice here (actually, that's the idea of this game...) : I can't keep up in the tech race : another 30 turns or so to reach Monotheism, and the other civ's are racing ahead again. Should I even try to catch up ? After my attack force was stopped by Sumer, I need to rebuild and probably eliminate the last two English cities as soon as I can.

Any ideas ?
 
There is always the Great Library tech elevator, although some people consider this a crutch play. The idea is to let the AI run through the MA, while you concentrate on a massive military buildup. Then, ideally, when two AI reach the IA you attack the Great Library city in numbers. As long as you can hold over the IT you catch up the tech deficit in one fell swoop all the way into the IA, and there are usually trade options then as well.

It is essential that you then get steam power quickly, because rails are a great boon to your commerce and can keep you with the AI through the IA.
 
Yep, that's an option, but i'd like to use that only as a last resort. I don't feel that desparate yet. :)
I'll probably help the English out of their misery first, and then see how things are going.
 
This Deity level is really giving me a run for my money. :crazyeye:
I wasn't very confident of my position at the start of this session : with the other continent so close by, and England having the Lighthouse, this had in fact become a pangeae map, but things are turning out rather well :
390BC : declare war on England and take their last two cities on our continent, including the Lighthouse. They stay alive, and I learn later they have a city on an island somewhere far off. Peace deal gets me monarchy.
230BC : declare war on Sumer with about 15 swordsmen. Enough to capture (and raze) one border city, and disconnect their silk. Peace some time later gives me gpt and one of their cities that was under attack from China. China prompty declares war on me (130BC) and auto-razes the city.
It's now 110BC; I just got into Monarchy after 7 turns of anarchy. Still have to check production, but here's the save already.

Plan : in 4 turns, I'll have monotheism (not as first civ). with mapmaking, I'll bring Greece into the MA and then hope to trade monarchy and/or monotheism for their free tech.
After that, I have absolutely no clue. :confused:
 
Well, this game isn't attracting the kind of participation i had hoped for. :( Maybe the tempo is too low to get people engaged ? Or maybe it's because I'm doingrather fine anyhow (yeah, right :rolleyes: ).

In any case, I play on ! :)
I got Monotheism in 70BC and brought Greece into the MA - unfortunately they got Monotheism as well as free tech, so no trade-opportunities there. :( So then started Theology at full speed.
Meanwhile, China managed to get a couple of swords up to my turf, and they managed to take Hastings. :mad: But bad turned to good when I could retake the city in the next turn with a mounted warrior, and started my golden age. :D . China gave peace after that.
In 170AD I got Theology in the same turn as about 4 other civs. I can still trade it for engineering and republic, though. (Decide to stay in Monarchy since I don't want another 7 turn anarchy - I am right that on deity level anarchy takes longer ?)
I'm using the extra drive from the GA to strengthen my empire with temples, libraries, barracks and some defenders. I was the first to Printing Press in 290AD (in 8 turns - I'm proud of myself... :king: ). Trading then gave me Education, Feudalism, Invention, Gunpowder and Chivalry ! :eek: Since I didn't have the monopoly on contacts any more (ever since England's lighthouse), I traded those around as well.

I'm now in the tech-lead again, but probably not for long. I think Chemistry next is the best bet for research : I can now focus again on military build-up; with all the AI's paying me gpt's, that's probably a good thing (they may decide to suddenly stop their downpayments...).

I took a screenie in 290AD and only now notice I have saltpeter within my borders. :)

Oh, and did I mention already that I keep the saves of every turn ? If anyone wants to see a certain save, just let me know. For instance, I think this trading session in 290AD is quite interesting.

<I can't seem to upload the save now; I'll do it later>
 
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