Can anyone afford railroads?

[Bleser]

I'm not 100% certain that railroads are to blame, but I feel like every time I get a decent railroad network going I end up in the red during non-golden age eras.

I realize you're effectively doubling your network costs (right? road = 1GPT, RR = 2GPT, not 1 + 2...?), but an empire should be able to sustain these costs. In my current game I was running about +55 GPT pre-railroads, and now I'm at about -18 GPT with the network almost completed (and I've built several stock exchanges to try and help the costs). My military is not very big (a problem) and I am hesitant now to complete the network for not being able to afford it.

What's the solution? I realize there are lots of factors into overall budget but this is my second game in a row where I can't afford my railroads. Maybe I should switch the focus of some of my cities to gold (although all of my puppets are doing this already...)?

 

[wurstburst]

By the time you get to railroads, you should have an economy kicking out hundreds of GPT. It's nice to hook up some of your closest nearby cities to the capital. Those are usually the biggest, best cities and can best make use of the extra production boost. You don't have to wire up the whole civ, if the outlying cities are small.

Are you using too few trading posts? TP spam is your friend.

 

[humbe]

I kinda have the issues with roads too..

On the same island/continent as my capitol it is kinda ok. I get back road investments by adding trade routes, and I get loads of production bonuses by tying them together with rail.

But on other continents / islands, it is often easier to set up harbors. But if many cities on the island have harbors, having roads on the island will just add to maintenance without having any upside apart from being able to move units faster. Similarly with railroads on islands with many harbor cities. Rails don't seem to increase movement speed as much as it did before either. Feels like it merely double it or something, compared to unlimited and 10x from earlier versions of the game.

If you build too much roads or railroads, then sadly I think that is wrong. If you can't maintain railroads that do give you the 50% production bonus, then I think you need to work on your economy, or build your cities closer.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I could afford railroads when I was farm/mine/lumbermill spamming with Ghandi.
Didn't make a single trading post, and was still making over 400 gold a turn.

See, "railroads" are much cheaper if you're playing a coastal game.
Harbor counts as a railroad connection, whilst sea resources are 8 yield tiles with the appropriate buildings (and a work boat, of course).

So what ends up happening for me, is a single giant railroad track slicing through the mid-continent cities (packed 2 apart but claiming more tiles off to the sides .. so there's only 2 tiles of railroad per city), and the coastal cities making do without any roads at all.

I think the civ 5 mechanics encourages ... well ... ICS actually, but for those intending to build epic cities, some creative foresight when city planning is a go.

 

[Soronery]

harbor gives you a raidroad connection? Really?

 

[bigwinw]

harbor gives you a raidroad connection? Really?

Can anyone confirm this? I sure hope so.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Load up your game, and hover your mouse pointer over the hammer total in your city view.

It will list the modifiers, which will include the +50% from railroad.

 

[elthrasher]

harbor gives you a raidroad connection? Really?

Yeah, and the trade route too, but it doesn't seem to link the city to your capital for purposes of meritocracy. I'm not sure if that's by design or if it's a bug. Anyone else notice this? If so, that makes meritocracy a lot weaker on archipelago.

 

[stormerne]

I realize you're effectively doubling your network costs (right? road = 1GPT, RR = 2GPT, not 1 + 2...?),

Only for a while. If you take the in-game recommendations, it will suggest you build the railroad on different tiles to the existing road. And that's a good thing, because you don't want to disrupt your trade routes or military access routes even temporarily.

But why pay 50% more gold in maintenance than you need to? Have you thought about removing each road once its corresponding railroad is built? It's a worker option.

 

[Bleser]

Only for a while. If you take the in-game recommendations, it will suggest you build the railroad on different tiles to the existing road. And that's a good thing, because you don't want to disrupt your trade routes or military access routes even temporarily.

But why pay 50% more gold in maintenance than you need to? Have you thought about removing each road once its corresponding railroad is built? It's a worker option.

Ok, you lost me here. I had no idea what you are saying was true.

What I've been doing is this:

1. Connect all cities via single road network early-game
2. Overlay/railroad that same road network with rail.

Is this not what I should be doing? It sounds like you're recommending one of two things:

A. Do what I'm doing and then "remove" the road underneath the railroad, which I thought I was doing automatically.
B. Build a separate railroad network from my road network, which actually sounds kinda cool!

 

[Druin]

To be honest, I very rarely have more than two "production" cities. They are most often VERY near my capital and get railed up immediately for a total of +4 gpt! Other then that I just ignore rails outside of Harbor abuse.

As for the correct way to lay them: All trade route connecting features interact with each other; ie: The Great Warpath UA of the Iroquois makes forests into "roads" if your cities are mostly connected by forests but two tiles break the forest up, you can just make roads in those two tiles and it will correctly integrate the roads with the forests. The same is true for the railroad, if you have 3 tiles of road connecting city A to city B, and replace any one of them with railroad, the game will automatically remove the road from that tile, place a railroad and then integrate the two types to seamlessly keep your trade route.

In conclusion: Just replace whatever roads you have with railroads for the cities that you would like to have the railroad bonus in!

 

[Bibor]

I'm not 100% certain that railroads are to blame, but I feel like every time I get a decent railroad network going I end up in the red during non-golden age eras.

I realize you're effectively doubling your network costs (right? road = 1GPT, RR = 2GPT, not 1 + 2...?), but an empire should be able to sustain these costs. In my current game I was running about +55 GPT pre-railroads, and now I'm at about -18 GPT with the network almost completed (and I've built several stock exchanges to try and help the costs). My military is not very big (a problem) and I am hesitant now to complete the network for not being able to afford it.

What's the solution? I realize there are lots of factors into overall budget but this is my second game in a row where I can't afford my railroads. Maybe I should switch the focus of some of my cities to gold (although all of my puppets are doing this already...)?

+55 GPT is way too low for the time you have railroads. You need to either optimize your road network, your army size or your income.

As for saving upkeep money on railroads... Harbor acts as a railroad connection with same restrictions as per "trade route connection" (connecting city must be capital or have road access to capital, naval blockade, blocked coastal connection before you can navigate oceans, ice hex blocking access).

Since Harbors cost 2 GPT to maintain, any coastal city that would need 3 or more railroad hexes to connect is probably better off by building a harbor instead.

 

[bigwinw]

All trade route connecting features interact with each other; ie: The Great Warpath UA of the Iroquois makes forests into "roads" if your cities are mostly connected by forests but two tiles break the forest up, you can just make roads in those two tiles and it will correctly integrate the roads with the forests. The same is true for the railroad

So the exact terminology is:

Units move through forest and jungle in friendly territory as if it is Road. These tiles can be used to establish Trade Routes.

Does this mean that you must OWN the land? I guess friend means your land and not neutral land (unowned).

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

Yeah, for The Great Warpath, you have to own the land. To connect through unclaimed area, you have to build roads.

For the OP, one thing you should try is to use harbors as much as possible. I am not sure about these people saying you should have HUNDREDS of Gold Per Turn, but you should definitely not be in the red at that point.

Harbors will bestow the railroad production bonus on cities. I try to save roads or railroads strictly for troop movements (sometimes I'll even build a railroad on the path to a territory I'll invade soon), or if I have two 'halves' of an Empire, like:

(Bunch of Cities) =======long corridor of railroad ======= (Bunch of Cities)

Also, I hadn't noticed the stuff about Meritocracy, I will check that I guess, because I figured it just determined by trade routes, not actual connections.

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Are the railroads to blame for high expenses? What buildings do you build? One highly counterintuitive aspect of CiV is that in most cities, you should only ever build three buildings.

- Monument
- Colliseum
- Market.

Building universities in 20 different cities is going to bankrupt you pretty quick. And you really should not build barracks, forges, or other military buildings unless you're sure you'll get a worthwhile benefit from them.

 

[Thalassicus]

The Harbor tooltip and civlopedia entry are very confusing.

Hopefully the less ambiguous versions (copied below) in the unofficial patch help clarify how trade routes and railroads work. With harbors, you can drastically cut your railroad costs. Harbors cost 3, and just 2 railroad tiles cost 4, so harbors are always cheaper than railroads for coastal cities. I basically build harbors on coastlines, and one intercontinental railway down the center of the landmass for unit transportation and connecting cities there.

The City Development balance adjustments help with the issue Creepy Old Man describes, giving you a little more flexibility and options with your cities, while still encouraging strategic thought over just spamming everything everywhere like cIV.

Harbor Tooltip
A trade route can only cross between water and land tiles at a Harbor.

+25% Production building Naval Units.

City must be built on the coast.

Harbor Civlopedia
An unbroken route of roads, railroads, or water tiles to the Capital provides .

An unbroken route of railroads or water tiles to the Capital provides +50% (requires Railroads technology).

 

[Dermo]

Are the railroads to blame for high expenses? What buildings do you build? One highly counterintuitive aspect of CiV is that in most cities, you should only ever build three buildings.

- Monument
- Colliseum
- Market.

Building universities in 20 different cities is going to bankrupt you pretty quick. And you really should not build barracks, forges, or other military buildings unless you're sure you'll get a worthwhile benefit from them.

I've seen posts like this a number of times and I'm wondering, why only these three?
Why would you not include a bank, or a stock exchange (or mint if the option is available)

 

[Bandobras Took]

Some cities don't want to put that much production into a minimal gold return.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

Are the railroads to blame for high expenses? What buildings do you build? One highly counterintuitive aspect of CiV is that in most cities, you should only ever build three buildings.

- Monument
- Colliseum
- Market.

Building universities in 20 different cities is going to bankrupt you pretty quick. And you really should not build barracks, forges, or other military buildings unless you're sure you'll get a worthwhile benefit from them.

This is really oversimplifying things. The entire Market line of buildings is good to build if you have the production to spare, and unless I'm doing ICS, I can't see skipping Temples. Monasteries and Mints, if available are great buildings.

And really, at 4 gold per hex, Railroads are super expensive. Just imagine how many buildings' maintenance you could pay for by skipping a few tiles of railroads. Again, this might be just because I do everything in my power to have the vast majority of my cities be Coastal.

 

[Law Lord]

I've seen posts like this a number of times and I'm wondering, why only these three?
Why would you not include a bank, or a stock exchange (or mint if the option is available)

I could see the argument for those three buildings only when you adopt a hard military rush strategy, or are under the gun in MP constantly.

For any other victory type, I'd be hard pressed to think of a good argument against building libraries.