[NFP] Can marathon be fun?

[Kotofei]

I messed around with marathon a little....seems like there are significant balance issues, and it ends up being a classical era battle royale. I mean that's cool for Monty and Gorgo and Harald, but....anyway, anyone found fun/interesting playstyles on marathon?

 

[Xur]

I used to play marathon in previous civ games, but not in civ6. The game is simply too boring and everything is scaled wrong. A better option is to get a mod that makes tech more expensive and just play on standard.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I like to play marathon in domination victory because I can use for more time my units before need to upgrade then, some civs as Aztecs who had just early game unique units it's very helpfull.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

If you play on the huge (or larger) maps, marathon is the way to go.

Yep, time to explore, and get the units home for upgrades.

Also fun, the polar areas can become absolutely infested with barbs.
Great for getting a couple promotions (or more)

YnAMP huge earth map.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

The "Extended Eras" mod does a much better job with extending the game -- longer techs/civics while the build speed can be left on standard. The AI makes *tons* more units. I've never played this on Epic, but I bet it would be close to marathon speed research with Epic speed building (which may be to your liking)

I make some other modifications myself, including eliminating all boosts except via hut/barbarian camp or via Great People. That makes GS's a *lot* more useful as well (and of course extends the eras further).

EDIT: Oh, and allowing +1 movement for all units mod literally makes the AI be less incompetent (not good, mind you )

 

[blackbutterfly]

I messed around with marathon a little....seems like there are significant balance issues...

Oh yes!

Try Apocalypse mode.

Or Zombies.

At Marathon it's even more exploitable.

Spiffing Brit did a YouTube of China/Qin in Marathon. You can basically win building Wonders. Add Dramatic Ages and Monopolies.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I played quite a number of Marathon games - and overall enjoyed to have more time to move units around on a huge map. However, it comes at price of other problems (mainly balance and AI) - to name two examples out of my head: Sometimes you will just get stomped by barbs early, because of starting lone - and the AI will even perform worse, as the logic for ressource purchases doesn't scale (which means that they only consider a storage of 40 Iron/Horses/Niter as useful, despite units costing up to 90). I also runned at least once in a nasty bug which didn't allow me continuing a Marathon game after several hundred turns (a WC resolution wasn't possible to be choosen because of all Great people being taken); that might have ben fixed though or become less likely though because of a later change to the point costs for GP.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If you play on the huge (or larger) maps, marathon is the way to go.

Yep, time to explore, and get the units home for upgrades.

Also fun, the polar areas can become absolutely infested with barbs.
Great for getting a couple promotions (or more)

YnAMP huge earth map.

I always play Huge/marathon. I enjoy exploring and duking it out with the barbs. It also lets you dedicate more time to expansion and other non-victory things, since there are abundant turns before you really need to hone in on your preferred victory.

 

[Benevolent Dictator]

The AI makes *tons* more units. I've never played this on Epic, but I bet it would be close to marathon speed research with Epic speed building (which may be to your liking)

Can the AI keep enough Gold income to avoid mass disbanding their standing army with the mod?

My experience is that even Deity AI can't maintain any standing army due to Gold issues and not building CHs after the Science bug (on console, can't patch).

I find myself playing with House rules when trading with the AI, constantly checking that my trades for GPT won't bankrupt them, even on Deity.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

@Benevolent Dictator yes, yes it can. I have been tweaking some values (and these are not perfect at all, but better than the original) and there are options for making the AI more aggressive and still have money.

These values are to help with more units:

UPDATE PseudoYields SET DefaultValue = 5 WHERE PseudoYieldType = 'PSEUDOYIELD_STANDING_ARMY_NUMBER'; -- was 1
UPDATE PseudoYields SET DefaultValue = .5 WHERE PseudoYieldType = 'PSEUDOYIELD_STANDING_ARMY_VALUE'; -- was 0.1

And then, what you have to do is to take away the "disband all units at all costs for a rocket" given to us in the April 2021 patch:

UPDATE AiFavoredItems SET Value = 15 WHERE ListType = 'ClassicalYields' AND Item = 'YIELD_SCIENCE'; -- was 150

This was a broken patch that was never fixed. For the record, the value of 15 might be better left at another number, but certainly it helped. (what it helped with is the AI focusing a bit more on money and less on science). Another adjustment:

DELETE FROM AiFavoredItems WHERE ListType = 'ClassicalDistricts' AND Item = 'DISTRICT_CAMPUS';
DELETE FROM AiFavoredItems WHERE ListType = 'ClassicalDistricts' AND Item = 'DISTRICT_THEATER';

I made some other adjustments, but the key is to make sure to use the Extended Eras mod -- otherwise tech is so fast it isn't even fun anymore.

That standing army change from .1 to .5 means that in the ancient era I see AI's with military value of 1500+. It's insane. But alas, I still can't get the AI to be hyper aggressive unless of course you start next to them, even on Deity. The code they won't give us would be easily fixable, but they simply let us down.

Oh well, at least some of the above helps. I also play where every civ can have a religion (beautiful mod called Tomatekh's Historical Religions and enhanced by Religion Expanded by SeelingCat etc. -- 16 religions possible) and that helps with creating divides between players. But, the AI is still too passive imho.

To go back to the original question, AI's don't disband units in my games, I think just because of the lessening of the campus and theatre "favoritism". If they would start to disband, I would increase their gold. But, again, I'm playing on Deity (my original mod was for Immortal) so maybe there are enough bonuses to compensate. I'm not sure how this would work on a lower level (regarding gold).

 

[Finvola]

I've always been a Marathon/huge map player. I have tried playing on faster speeds but in the end I find that I prefer marathon speed. I feel too rushed, otherwise. Well, too rushed playing on anything faster than standard. I don't think I've ever played on epic speed. I enjoy a nice long game with lots of land. I know there are balance issues, or realized it during the odd time I played on a faster speed but I am ok with that.

 

[Kotofei]

Oh yes!

Try Apocalypse mode.

Or Zombies.

At Marathon it's even more exploitable.

Spiffing Brit did a YouTube of China/Qin in Marathon. You can basically win building Wonders. Add Dramatic Ages and Monopolies.

That's.....just.....wrong....

That's an interesting idea, though, if disaster frequency doesn't scale. Set it to 4.

 

[blackbutterfly]

That's.....just.....wrong....

That's an interesting idea, though, if disaster frequency doesn't scale. Set it to 4.

IKR

TBH I'm trying to ascertain if Apocalypse needs balancing or my maps.
(I developed more than a dozen "Scrambled" maps a la Civ V for Civ VI. They are meant to reflect the virgin or untouched world so is quite arboreal. In Apocalypse mode it's crazy...but as you can see you get the same crazy yields in Firaxis' own maps).

It maybe why their latest map Huge Earth has only pockets of jungle and forest.

I'm also trying to figure out how to exploit Apocalypse mode.
It seems you need a large contiguous woods or rain forest -> How To Survive Apocalypse Mode

 

[KayAU]

As someone who always plays on Marathon in Civ 5 and BE, in Civ 6 I found it too tedious, and settled for Epic instead.

The reason I started using slower game speeds in the first place, is that the relationship between unit movement and tech development is otherwise quite silly, especially in older Civ games where units moved very slowly. So you research a new tech, build a unit...and then spend 200 years moving it to where you want to use it, at which point it has become obsolete. It isn't as bad in the newer Civs, but I still prefer the slower modes.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

Apoc on Marathon can end up a race at the end.

Will I have any cities left ?

(frantically rebuilding a city only to have IT wiped out shortly after... arrrrrggghhh!!!)

 

[blackbutterfly]

Apoc on Marathon can end up a race at the end.

Will I have any cities left ?

(frantically rebuilding a city only to have IT wiped out shortly after... arrrrrggghhh!!!)

In Apocalypse you want to settle forest and jungle. The largest swathes possible.
Then if your cities get wiped out to 1 pop for fire, they will rebound super quickly with 12+ food, 12+ prod tiles, I promise

 

[Kotofei]

Or Zombies.

At Marathon it's even more exploitable.

I just tried a spectator game and holy cow zombies are OUT OF CONTROL on marathon! Even on Deity, they murderized 2 more AIs while I typed this.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I just tried a spectator game and holy cow zombies are OUT OF CONTROL on marathon! Even on Deity, they murderized 2 more AIs while I typed this.

IKR

FYI Zombies MP is so much fun:

Just watch players drop off like flies. Rage quit I suppose.

I have just posted on Steam a mod to help combat both Zombies and apocalyptic disasters - Walled Quarter (it's from the Black Death scenario).

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

In Apocalypse you want to settle forest and jungle. The largest swathes possible.
Then if your cities get wiped out to 1 pop for fire, they will rebound super quickly with 12+ food, 12+ prod tiles, I promise

When the BIG metor hits, the city is GONE! There is an impassable lake there now.
Supposedly best to have 1 govenor in the capital with the right promotions.
Immune to environmental effects. Haven't tried that yet.
Lost 15 cities one game.
ouch.

 

[blackbutterfly]

When the BIG metor hits, the city is GONE! There is an impassable lake there now.
Supposedly best to have 1 govenor in the capital with the right promotions.
Immune to environmental effects. Haven't tried that yet.
Lost 15 cities one game.
ouch.

You know in Apocalypse mode you're not supposed to chop trees right?
Also plan on attacking civs who expand onto forests and jungle (unless Kupe) and prevent them from chopping forests and jungles.

The planet will thank you

All this discussion on surviving Apocalypse + Zombies (esp. on Marathon) inspired me to mod Walled Quarter.

It's lifted from the Black Death scenario with a repurposed Hospital building that provides relief/immunity from minor disasters. (It comes into play in the Medieval era so not OP).