Can someone advise how I survive?

[agonistes]

I replay old saves all the time to see if I could do better.
.

Awesome. I don't actually play old saves, but even what others might consider a micro mistake can cause me to 'restart' on the same map - meaning, restart as the same civ on TSL, not restarting the same game. And I think about old games often... probably to the extent its unhealthy.

Agree with you about unwinnable... it means no possible solution. Reloads are fine to prove a map is winnable.

One can always make a mistake on the first attempt because of either poor skills, being distracted, believing (erroneously) that the map will go the way it usually does,
.

All go down as losses. But still agree... a reload doesn't mean a successful attempt cannot qualify as proof a map is winnable.

There is a difference between proving a map is winnable, and proving that you individually can win a map.

I was going to try this start, but you guys have spammed too many spoilers. I'd feel cheap and dirty.

If there is one thing I have learned about Civ that newcomers have a hard time grasping, its never give up on a map. [edit: I should say game, not map, to avoid confusion] And sometimes even pro-league vets fall into this trap on occasion.

Leyrann - (hi!) if a map remains unbeaten for 4 years without a reload, from turn 1, and then Abraxis or Moonsinger comes along and prods its buttocks, do you consider the map to have shifted from unwinnable to winnable? For me, unwinnable means there is no possible way to beat it.

Or, are you considering a map to be unwinnable from the point of view of the individual? On a player by player basis?

 

[isau]

An example of "unwinnable" in this particular context would be like if the best save the player had was turn 6 (as in this case) and the Settler unit was right near some barbarians. Actually, maybe still winnable in Civ 6 because Barbarians often ignore Settlers. But I have seen that in both Civ 4 and 5 and had to discard games because there was no possible path to victory at that point.

 

[cll3]

I wouldn't even call it trial and error though. Trial and error would be failing and starting a new game to try and not make the same mistake -that's fine.

Reloading into the same situation taking knowledge from after the situation isn't really playing the game anymore because managing uncertainty and risk is a major element of the game. You take that away and it's literally no different than turning off the fog of war. It's cheating. I have no problems with people cheating in single player games at all, but I do have a problem with them acting like they're playing the same game as people who aren't cheating.

This is true for the most part when learning games. But... learning to optimally manage uncertainty and risk comes from analyzing historical data... When something's behavior is "guided" by something systematic (like a set of coded instructions, or a brain that has been educated and loaded up with experiences), the "something systematic" will manifest in its present and future behavior. Its quality of performance, even with significant variance, will exhibit autocorrelation. In the case of a computer program, the autocorrelation will be complete.

so replaying the same turns from the same game can teach you more than just the permutations that came from that one particular game. It gives insight on AI tendencies, which carry through to all games that AI plays. Similarly if you open with the same joseki in go, or the same black opener multiple times in a row vs the same white opener chess vs one actual person, you can still note all the ways the branching differs and your brain inadvertently stores all that data whether you want it to or not. Eventually you'll reach a point where your brain has seen so many permutations of the same opening, it'll have a hunch on how that opponent will respond in many outside situations you've never even seen before. Because that opponent's actions all share something systematic. They come from the same person, the same brain trained by the same set of historical data he/she stored through experience/education. In this example the AI isn't even learning... it's stagnant AI

Although I agree, with respect to gaming, your approach is much more fun, and truer to the integrity of the game. But the reload approach is just as viable, with respect to learning speed. I wouldn't knock a player for choosing to learn through save scumming. Because that's all it is... his method of learning. And eventually after he's learned enough, he won't need that tool anymore.

 

[steveg700]

Although I agree, with respect to gaming, your approach is much more fun, and truer to the integrity of the game. But the reload approach is just as viable, with respect to learning speed. I wouldn't knock a player for choosing to learn through save scumming. Because that's all it is... his method of learning. And eventually after he's learned enough, he won't need that tool anymore.

Pretty much.

Accepting consequences is more hardcore, and if you enjoy the sense of risk that playing without a safety net offers, then more power to you. However, the rhetoric about scum-saving being a poor way to learn how to mitigate risk is a canard. If a car is about to impact me, one option is to just let it happen, reasoning that after spending some time in a hospital and doing a couple years of PT, I'll have learned something from the experience about how to watch out traffic. Another option is to move out of the way. Since the shock of either experience will probably imprint upon me the need to be more careful, I'll take the one that is more conducive to living a longer, happier life. I suspect most anyone would.

Likewise, when I'm playing XCOM and I trigger a pod on the other side of a building by walking too close to a open windows on both sides of the building, I don't need to suffer a TPK to know not to do that again in the future. The very act of reloading (either XCOM or Civ) is not such a painless experience that I will disregard the event that led me to it. Nor will just sucking up the TPK necessarily teach me anything.

 

[cll3]

not such a painless experience

lul reloading in civ 6 is actually extremely painful... Sean Bean... we meet again... why... no pls... no more, no more, NO MORE, NOMORENOMORENOMORE

 

[Victoria]

Sorry, was tied up with family and work the last couple of days

I completely missed the locked down food tile and that was my bad. I tried a few times and just thought it would be a good example.... turned out to be bad and just reinforced peoples views that nothing on deity is unwinnable because that was the real aim of the post.

In that same situation with no production you would probably be screwed but keep your beliefs... I just know they are wrong, rare but wrong.

I do thank those that did it and when I released that locked tile it was a lot easier showing that production is indeed king.

I do reload when testing things but otherwise its just my bad and that punishment makes me more weary. Save restore ruins it for me but understand people will want to play an optimum game so thats their choice.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

Battle Chess.

I still have Battle Chess II on 5.25" floppy.
(and for civ related, seems I still have Populous and The Humans)

 

[Leyrann]

I still have Battle Chess II on 5.25" floppy.
(and for civ related, seems I still have Populous and The Humans)

I wanted to install Populous, but the gog version doesn't support Windows 10.

 

[agonistes]

I wanted to install Populous, but the gog version doesn't support Windows 10.

I'm gonna grab it if I can. Must be playable on a phone by now, you think?

 

[Leyrann]

I'm gonna grab it if I can. Must be playable on a phone by now, you think?

I don't know. Probably. Controls were cluncky enough that it won't matter anyways, having to select every spell by moving your mouse over there and no hotkeys.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

Of course, mine is still the dos version.
On my long list of "have to see about..." checking if any of these things are still readable.
(I have the floppy drive, just dunno about a system that can USE it. )

 

[king of nowhere]

keep in mind that another approach to the game is not the power player, but the builder. Sure, if you want to be strong and win in the face of the hardest odds possible, then reloading is cheating. but if your goal is to create a nice empire and bask in its splendor, then reloading in the face of impending doom is simply a way to avoid losing all the time to restart from scratch. not everyone wants to put effort into being the best civ player possible.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

just reinforced peoples views that nothing on deity is unwinnable because that was the real aim of the post.

In that same situation with no production you would probably be screwed but keep your beliefs... I just know they are wrong, rare but wrong.

Unfortunately, we aren't. Put bluntly, Civ VI is one easy game. The 'most unwinnable' save so far lasted what, 24 hours, before being cracked open (and it was a save after 6 nonoptimal turns too, not a clean 4000BC). The very first 6otM deity game - with players barely having it unpackaged/downloaded - had 22 wins out of 25 submissions. Do you know how many winners did the first CIV:Warlords GotM deity save have? Zero. Do you know how many it has now after 10+ years? Zero. Do you know how many the next two had? Two, once me, once Rusten, and I have zero expectations to see a third name added. Mind you, we didn't walk in blindly and win as the twenty-two 6otM guys did, at least in part we relied on strategies that the community had been perfecting for months and even years at the time. And there were plenty of strategies to be had because the game was complex and rich, and they made for a vast differential in results regardless of safer/riskier playstyle, as games like BotM 10 clearly showed.

Civ III - that's another I won deity right off the bat (with the Atzec), but unlike the snoozefesty V (with Al) and VI (with Gilga), I barely clawed to that victory having thought it's over many times during the game. And they introduced the Sid level after that. So it wasn't easy, nor was Civ II's deity. And while there's a case to be made Civ I's Emperor was easy to beat with certain strategies, it still wasn't a game that awarded wins just for showing up.

What, you think VI's deity has me scared because it has five, highly confused, warriors at start? We used to play IV's deity on Always War just for fun, and actually won sometimes in its final expansion BtS. If there is an unwinnable save for VI, it will be a three-tile peninsula walled off by mountains, or a small isle of tundra and ice (and even then it's a big 'if'), not one starting with neighbor(s).

 

[Victoria]

or a small isle of tundra and ice (and even then it's a big 'if'), not one starting with neighbor(s).

I have played civ back in the bad old days, I am not a noob.
Be as arrogant as you wish, I do not mind.
Just do not tell me no gotm players savescum.... and that's sadly a rule of honour of gotm that is not obeyed by all.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Reloading into the same situation taking knowledge from after the situation isn't really playing the game anymore because managing uncertainty and risk is a major element of the game. You take that away and it's literally no different than turning off the fog of war. It's cheating. I have no problems with people cheating in single player games at all, but I do have a problem with them acting like they're playing the same game as people who aren't cheating.

It's not cheating if you've already chalked it up as a loss (though it certainly is in a competition setting like GOTM to Victoria's point). It's more like a post-mortum - there is value in looking back on your experience to see where things went wrong and how you could have done things better. This also encourages experimenting with different strategies. I rarely load prior saves but there is some appeal in going back if I come to a fork in the road and have two contrasting strategies and still want to try the other one after one of them doesn't work so well.

Do you know how many winners did the first CIV:Warlords GotM deity save have? Zero. Do you know how many it has now after 10+ years? Zero. Do you know how many the next two had? Two, once me, once Rusten, and I have zero expectations to see a third name added. Mind you, we didn't walk in blindly and win as the twenty-two 6otM guys did, at least in part we relied on strategies that the community had been perfecting for months and even years at the time.

Wow that's crazy. I knew it was more difficult before but I had no idea it was that much of a disparity. I don't find Deity to be easy at all but I have won more often than not in my few attempts and got my first win without really even understanding the mechanics well (though it was only due to the spaceport bug). Civ 6 is the only game where I have managed to win at all on Deity so yes I would agree that it's easier.

I also think posters are somewhat full of it when they say Deity is a cakewalk in any circumstance though - that's hyperbole and probably a little bit of resentment that players are winning so quickly this time around. I meant any Deity game being winnable in the sense that someone could possibly win it even if it's less than .01% of all attempts. I haven't yet seen a start that I would say is impossible and I would probably say the same about the previous games as well.

 

[king of nowhere]

well, clearly the players who say they can win easily are a small minority of very strong players. I consider myself quite good, I got all the achievements done, and I think I could beat deity without savescumming, without much warmongering and with a passable start, but not every time. the one time I tried it on a fair game, with a somewhat-above-average start and savescumming (during earlier eras, after renaissance was no longer needed), I got to science victory while the AI had just barely started the first mars project, so about 30-50 turns of advantage at normal speed. If I did not savescum, how many more turns would it take for me to win? probably not 50, so I think I could win even without reloading. but as I said, I just don't like to be the underdog for all of the game.
While there are people a lot stronger than me, I am pretty sure I am stronger than most (as in most players, not most of those who post in this forum and are diehard civ players every last one of them. Not sure where I fall in there). Which makes me think civ6 was designed for the average joe, not for us.

 

[agonistes]

Unfortunately, we aren't. Put bluntly, Civ VI is one easy game. The 'most unwinnable' save so far lasted what, 24 hours, before being cracked open (and it was a save after 6 nonoptimal turns too, not a clean 4000BC). The very first 6otM deity game - with players barely having it unpackaged/downloaded - had 22 wins out of 25 submissions. Do you know how many winners did the first CIV:Warlords GotM deity save have? Zero. Do you know how many it has now after 10+ years? Zero. Do you know how many the next two had? Two, once me, once Rusten, and I have zero expectations to see a third name added. Mind you, we didn't walk in blindly and win as the twenty-two 6otM guys did, at least in part we relied on strategies that the community had been perfecting for months and even years at the time. And there were plenty of strategies to be had because the game was complex and rich, and they made for a vast differential in results regardless of safer/riskier playstyle, as games like BotM 10 clearly showed.

Civ III - that's another I won deity right off the bat (with the Atzec), but unlike the snoozefesty V (with Al) and VI (with Gilga), I barely clawed to that victory having thought it's over many times during the game. And they introduced the Sid level after that. So it wasn't easy, nor was Civ II's deity. And while there's a case to be made Civ I's Emperor was easy to beat with certain strategies, it still wasn't a game that awarded wins just for showing up.

What, you think VI's deity has me scared because it has five, highly confused, warriors at start? We used to play IV's deity on Always War just for fun, and actually won sometimes in its final expansion BtS. If there is an unwinnable save for VI, it will be a three-tile peninsula walled off by mountains, or a small isle of tundra and ice (and even then it's a big 'if'), not one starting with neighbor(s).

5 highly confused warriors? Nobody would suggest it. But I've seen screenies of 12+ barbs, some mounted, honing in on a city protected by 2 units... and, usually, according to the poster, this was occurring in the first 20 turns. Throw in a Sumerian assault.

I agree fully that, after the first 20 turns, the game is impossible to unintentionally lose if you are making any (edit: reasonable) effort to win. But I am uncomfortable declaring I can absolutely win any deity start when you have these early barbarian explosions. It just takes one unlucky spawn to make you either a liar or a fool.

I am far more comfortable saying I can beat any III start.

 

[Victoria]

My experiences over the years is that we're are all closer to each other than people think.

I do not consider myself a great player but can beat deity without restoring as long as I do not make too many bad judgement calls early. This is certainly not a tough deity level civ.

Some reasons for this is that cities are easy to take early, especially city states and there is little punishment for taking many cities. Yes 1UPT does make the AI significantly harder to code but at least they have archers move and shoot now.

This is a great game for other reasons than being a wargame

Thank you @agonistes you can see how starting on a grassy plain with a civ bearing straight down on you before turn 10'can just be death.

 

[agonistes]

Thank you @agonistes you can see how starting on a grassy plain with a civ bearing straight down on you before turn 10'can just be death.

Jeez, I'm lucky if I've settled a city by turn 10.

edit: although, I just realized, the benefit to this is that if a civ is bearing down on turn 10 and I haven't settled, my settler can haul arse. A capital cannot.

 

[Photi]

(I have the floppy drive, just dunno about a system that can USE it. )

when floppys were floppy and steam was a hot gas