Can someone explain the fix for AI armies?

[embryodead]

Both have 3 MP. So it's an 3x3MP Army, and no, I'm NOT cheating.

Yes, you are now

I wanted to know if they are not 2 MP to make sure there's no 3x2 MP. There is no 3x3 MP Army either, not on these screenshots at least, look again.

2nd screenshot:
Saracen Archer + Elephant Rider + Elephant Acher = 1+2+2
Han Archer + Faris + Faris = 1+2+2 (or 1+3+3)

3rd screenshot:
Numidian Merc + War Oliphant + War Oliphant = 1+2+2
War Camel + Mameluk + Cavalry + = 2+3+3
War Oliphant + Mameluk + Mameluk = 2+3+3

 

[tom2050]

I don't think I've ever seen that many armies in a normal game... there is some secret setting in there in your mod that must be causing this. Or some particular set of settings.

 

[embryodead]

I don't think I've ever seen that many armies in a normal game... there is some secret setting in there in your mod that must be causing this. Or some particular set of settings.

So what was wrong with my explanation In normal game it's very unlikely for the AI to fill armies in full because the only unit with 3 MP it can use is the Cavalry and like 2 UUs (by the time Modern Armor comes, the AI will have the Pentagon, which makes armies unfillable again)

EDIT: Also remember a player can only have 1 army per 4 cities.

 

[tom2050]

So what was wrong with my explanation In normal game it's very unlikely for the AI to fill armies in full because the only unit with 3 MP it can use is the Cavalry and like 2 UUs (by the time Modern Armor comes, the AI will have the Pentagon, which makes armies unfillable again)

EDIT: Also remember a player can only have 1 army per 4 cities.

I think I missed a few posts somehow when I flipped the page or something

So it is just the fact that if armies are made available when AI has only 1 or 2 MP units, and then when it gets armies, shortly after a 3 MP unit becomes available... then AI will be able to use Armies since it can fill them.

So the AI may have held onto all of those armies, and when it got the fast units, loaded them all up. That is why there are so many at the same time then. Makes sense!

Your explanation was spot on!

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

So just for my own clarification:

If you set Army MP to 1 in the editor, then when an Army becomes available on the field it is hardcoded to have 3MP. Then if you set Army MP to be 2 in the editor, the Army in the field will have 4MP?

In other words whatever you set the MP to be in the editor, the code automatically adds 1 MP when the Army is created. Is this an accurate assumption?

 

[Optional]

Ares de Borg, you've shown your army settings, but what about your leader settings? In the normal game the box 'finish improvements' is ticked, and that's what the AI does most of the time with a leader. I've never ever seen an AI army. Are you sure you haven't unticked this box or something?

 

[embryodead]

So just for my own clarification:

If you set Army MP to 1 in the editor, then when an Army becomes available on the field it is hardcoded to have 3MP. Then if you set Army MP to be 2 in the editor, the Army in the field will have 4MP?

In other words whatever you set the MP to be in the editor, the code automatically adds 1 MP when the Army is created. Is this an accurate assumption?

No, it's all wrong I'm afraid. The MP setting of the army in the editor is never used. The army's actual speed in game is always the average of the loaded units' speeds, rounded down and increased by 1.

 

[embryodead]

I think I missed a few posts somehow when I flipped the page or something

So it is just the fact that if armies are made available when AI has only 1 or 2 MP units, and then when it gets armies, shortly after a 3 MP unit becomes available... then AI will be able to use Armies since it can fill them.

So the AI may have held onto all of those armies, and when it got the fast units, loaded them all up. That is why there are so many at the same time then. Makes sense!

Your explanation was spot on!

More or less... the AI can fill an army with two 2 MP units + 1 MP unit but in C3C at least it cannot produce armies until Cavalry becomes available anyway, so before that the AI is restricted to GL armies anyway.

To sum up my understanding of Ares' settings is:

1. buildable armies
2. no "pentagon" wonder active
3. buildable units with 3 MP

The only AI armies I recall seeing in unmodded C3C are combinations of any infantry + knights& cavalry, which coincides with the above; basically you have to make sure the first two conditions + preferably the third one are met throughout the game (still, those armies are slower than human armies, since the AI can't build 3x3 MP army, which has 4 MP).

EDIT: This may sound trivial but for instance neither C3C nor any of the mods I worked on would have met these 3 conditions throughout the game (hence the cap:1 armies), e.g. some civs in WH lack fast units, and western civs in MEM are mostly limited to heavy cavalry.

 

[jackdubl]

So you're saying Ares got lucky to have so many AI armies in his game and once everyone hits the modern era...poof, no more fully-loaded AI armies?

On the other hand, the other day I was playing the good ol' Teturkhan mod and encountered an army of 24 cavalry (out of a possible 40 i think). Not only was it encountered, but it actively attacked me! I had to make an army of tanks to defeat it. This mod was done for PTW, so things still worked in the editor then, but i was playing it with conquests... so if you just set up armies using the PTW editor it seems to solve the problem? sorta short sighted, but it was a fun experience.

What was this thing someone wrote about using a PTW mod on C3C? How would that work?

 

[wolf_brother]

Ok, before we all get excited would someone who understands all of this and has the time please run some simple tests to quantify the results and post them for all of us to see?

 

[Ares de Borg]

To sum up my understanding of Ares' settings is:

1. buildable armies
2. no "pentagon" wonder active
3. buildable units with 3 MP

1. Yes, but only in cities with buildings that have the "build armies w/o leader" ability.
2. Not necessarily, I have the "Terracotta Army wonder" that works just like the pentagon.

So you're saying Ares got lucky to have so many AI armies in his game and once everyone hits the modern era...poof, no more fully-loaded AI armies?

(by the time Modern Armor comes, the AI will have the Pentagon, which makes armies unfillable again)

There are armies in modern times and they are not unfillable:

I wanted to know if they are not 2 MP to make sure there's no 3x2 MP. There is no 3x3 MP Army either, not on these screenshots at least, look again.

You're right, I was missing the war camel somehow.

Ok, before we all get excited would someone who understands all of this and has the time please run some simple tests to quantify the results and post them for all of us to see?

Well, what kind of test do you want?

 

[Ares de Borg]

Ares de Borg, you've shown your army settings, but what about your leader settings? In the normal game the box 'finish improvements' is ticked, and that's what the AI does most of the time with a leader. I've never ever seen an AI army. Are you sure you haven't unticked this box or something?

Yes, I'm sure.

Spoiler :

 

[wolf_brother]

OK, I'll ask the stupid question here... is it perhaps something Steph's editor is doing?

 

[embryodead]

@Ares

Thanks for the screen. Regarding "build armies w/o leader" I assumed that much, I didn't even know if it was possible without it.

As for the Terra Cotta/Pentagon: I was referring to the standard scenario where you don't have units with 4 MPs (I assume Ulan has 4 by default, if not, then you have a true human army there!) although you're right, if 3-4-4-4 works then I assume 2-3-3-3 will do as well.

The MP bug is still there but it is less drastic than I thought - since numbers are rounded down, only 1 unit in the army has to be slower than the rest. Consequently it is the reason for slower AI armies, but not for lack of armies - someone needs to find a better explanation I guess

 

[Blue Monkey]

Wow! Great discussion that I missed by being away all day yesterday.

Backing up to the earlier comment about PTW v. Conquests - if the army settings were made in the PTW editor & the scenario was later edited in Conquests & saved as a biq would the PTW army settings remain?

 

[wolf_brother]

Has anyone been able to replicate this?

 

[jackdubl]

So you're saying Ares got lucky to have so many AI armies in his game and once everyone hits the modern era...poof, no more fully-loaded AI armies?

In my scenarios I can get fully loaded AI armies, even in the modern era, as long as the first unit loaded is not the fastest unit available. I believe this is what embryodead was stating earlier. But once the AI loads a panzer, let's say, with 3 MP in as the first unit, it will not load any more units because of the MP bug. That's what I meant by 'got lucky', just that the AI had so many different units of different MPs that, by chance, the fastest units weren't loaded first. Ares, is this the same thing that is happening in your scenario with all of the AI armies or is something different happening?

 

[jackdubl]

On a side note, I wanted to use the noAIRaze patch, but I have no idea what this no-cd patch is and no idea where to get one if I'm playing v1.22. Can anyone help with this?

 

[Balthasar]

Just a thought: I noticed that the army has "blitz" ability. There've been discussions lately on various threads indicating that when a unit has "blitz" ability, it might be more likely that the AI will use it....

 

[Ares de Borg]

In my scenarios I can get fully loaded AI armies, even in the modern era, as long as the first unit loaded is not the fastest unit available. I believe this is what embryodead was stating earlier. But once the AI loads a panzer, let's say, with 3 MP in as the first unit, it will not load any more units because of the MP bug. That's what I meant by 'got lucky', just that the AI had so many different units of different MPs that, by chance, the fastest units weren't loaded first. Ares, is this the same thing that is happening in your scenario with all of the AI armies or is something different happening?

I guess so, it would be an explanation.