Can someone please explain cheat... sorry loyalty to me

[David Young]

I have a heroic age. I have Amani - the diplomat governor - with her -2 loyalty within 9 tiles upgrade. I have Victor the castellian not upgraded in another city. Victor is 4 tiles from an opponents city and Amani is also 4 tiles away in the other direction. He has 1 city 5 tiles away. Nothing is happening - the opponent city is losing no loyalty whatsoever. It is possible, looking at era scores, that they have a golden age. I on the other hand had a dark age just prior and was losing loyalty hand over fist. Surely there should be some effect on them, however small. I have played quite a few games and continually see an uneven bias towards opponents when according to the rules I should be affecting them and not vice versa. Am I missing something or is this just another example of civ cheating?

 

[Uberfrog]

Loyalty is primarily based on population. What is the population of their city (and their nearby cities) compared with yours?

@Victoria wrote a very comprehensive guide to how loyalty works: take a look before writing this off as cheating AI https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ-vi-loyalty-guide.27114/

 

[Tech Osen]

In the upper right corner there is a list of icons with access to the victory condition window, the city state window, etc. There is also access to the era window where you can also see in what for age your rivals are.

And apart from Amini's ability the governor's are only defensive when it comes to loyalty. They don't affect your rival's cities.

 

[criZp]

There is a loyalty lens you can use to see the amount of loyalty pressure from different sources

 

[RealHuhn]

Loyalty works exactly the same for the player and the AI. No cheats.

 

[Karmah]

Loyalty is primarily based on population. What is the population of their city (and their nearby cities) compared with yours?

@Victoria wrote a very comprehensive guide to how loyalty works: take a look before writing this off as cheating AI https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ-vi-loyalty-guide.27114/

Loyalty is VERY easy to deal with. I'm not trying to be a bottom here , I just want to underline how important it is that you read this guide and understand the mechanics. Once you do and know the couple of cards that can save you from a situation where you probably should not have been reasonabily , you should be fine. In fact the only thing loyalty has ever done in my games for years is net me some cities. I do have memories of struggling but that was only my first few games with RnF.

 

[leandrombraz]

Victor's ability is defensive. His +4 loyalty goes only to cities that you own in a 9 tiles range. He won't help you there. Amani is the only governor with an offensive loyalty ability.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Do you have a Cultural Alliance with said leader? It blocks the effects of Loyalty between your two nations, neither him, nor you, exert loyalty pressure on each other in any way.

 

[David Young]

OK thanks for replies. I have read Victoria's discourse and it explains some of what's going on. I have the cards in play and I understand how the governors work - Victor, Amani etc. I have attached an example of what I mean - the greens established this city in the last two turns

, I can see governors and he doesn't have one in this city. Yet rebellion is apparently going to take 266 turns. Can anyone rationally explain this scenario without using the c word? I have tried applying Victoria's maths and this just doesn't stack up.

 

[Tech Osen]

Missing vital info like what age is Greece in. We also can't see which cards he may ormay not be using.

 

[Bangau]

@David Young : Amani isn't established yet, if you were aiming for her -2 loyalty bonus. In two turns the loyalty should go to something like '20 turns to flip'. The loyalty pressure towards Megara isn't that big (depending a lot of the kind of ages you and they are in). Loyalty pressure decreases with distance. Frankfurt is an 'ok' size and only 4 tiles away, Bonn is still tiny itself and 5 tiles away. Strong (and fast) loyalty flipping requires a bit more cities and/or bigger cities. In this case you'll likely see that the AI will place a governor if the loyalty gets worse for them and you probably won't be able to flip. I see you have an entertainment complex in Frankfurt, that means you can run the 'Bread and Circuses' project which sends out extra loyalty pressure to all cities within 9 tiles. In this case that might be enough to flip Megara.

If you really want to learn more about loyalty I recommend playing Eleanor and use all the different ways to manipulate loyalty. If you play it well, you can loyalty flip the whole world! Have fun.

 

[_hero_]

I can see governors and he doesn't have one in this city. Yet rebellion is apparently going to take 266 turns. Can anyone rationally explain this scenario without using the c word? I have tried applying Victoria's maths and this just doesn't stack up.

If I'm counting distance properly, Frankfurt is 4 tiles away from Megara, Bonn is 5 tiles away, and Ephesus is 6 away. You are in a heroic age. Greece may be in a golden age (FYI you can check what age everyone is in by clicking on the era score on the bottom right. There should be an icon under each civ's logo matching their era in that screen).

Greece's Domestic loyalty from population if they are in a golden age should be (0.4*4=1.6) from Ephesus+1 from Megara=2.6*1.5 for golden age=3.9. If they have +2 or more amenities in Megara, that is another +6 which would come out to 9.9 loyalty. If they rushed a monument in there that is 10.9 Loyalty.

Your foreign pressure should be (0.6*10=6*1.5=9) from Frankfurt+(0.5*3=1.5*1.5=2.25) from Bonn= 11.25. 10.9*11.25= -0.35 loyalty per turn. 100/0.35=285.7... or 286 turns. You're at 266 turns to flip. Obviously, you've done some pressure already, probably a little before they bought a monument.

It appears you have an entertainment district in Frankfurt. You could run Bread and Circuses to increase Frankfurt's pressure from 9 to 18. You could convert Megara to your religion to add 3 more pressure. You could use a spy in Megara to reduce its loyalty to speed the process along.

 

[NukeAJS]

Like _hero_ said, run the bread and circuses project in Frankfurt, that alone should flip it in a reasonable amount of time.

When Amani gets established with bread and circuses, it should be game over for Megara. A spy would obviously help, but by the time he moved there and tried to complete his mission, the city will have flipped already.

 

[David Young]

Thankyou Tech Osen for reply, they are normal and I am dark. On that basis:

Greece - Megara loyalty = 1x100%x1 = 1
Greece - Ephesus loyalty = 4x50%x1 = 2 (4 pop,5 tiles away)

Germany - Frankfurt loyalty = 10x70% x 0.5 = 3.5 (10 pop, 3 tiles away)
Germany - Bonn loyalty = 4x60% x 0.5 = 1.2 (4 pop, 4 tiles away)

Ratio 3:4.7 in my favour - approx -5 loyalty to them on Victoria's table or 20 turns to rebellion.

If I tried that trick of settling 3 tiles away I would be totally clobbered. The cards are purely defensive and I fully understand how they are used. I need them when I do settle even though I am 7, 8 or 9 tiles away in a normal age. The settler lens view I have found to be complete rubbish. I settle on the edge of negative effects - i.e. in a zero tile next to a -4 or -2 or whatever, then get hit with -15 or -20 loyalty and have to bring all my various defences into play. The opposition on the other hand seems to settle close to me almost at will. I was pissed off on my first post because they settled so close with no negative effects yet they then settled further away and I flipped the city. The game decides what I'm going to get and what I'm not and plays by an entirely different rule set, but then civilisation always has. I played and very much enjoyed playing the very original civilisation game and have played several other iterations since and it's always the same.

If you have a wind from the east, France has conquered Spain in the last two moves, Moses has come to Mount Sinai and the second coming is upon us, then it should be obvious to even the most idiot newbies that it's perfectly ok for the opposition to settle their city 2 tiles away from yours! There's always some obscure justification unless you catch them with their pants down.

Anyway, my problem is not settling my own cities - I know what to expect and I can marshal my resources to combat it. My problem is with opponents settling cities near me with no apparent negative effects - or rebellion in 266 turns for example.

Thanks - my little rant has kept my mind off self-isolation for a good 1/2 hour. Take care

David

 

[David Young]

PANTS DOWN CHAPS

 

[Bangau]

If often fails to update properly, what is the loyalty next turn?

 

[ghost88]

If often fails to update properly, what is the loyalty next turn?

Also if you add them up it should read + 11.2 not negative