Can you help me make Bull Moose Teddy an Emperor?

[intellectsucks]

Hey all, tried this map a couple of times and got spanked. Figured I'd try again, moving a little more slowly and see if any of you guys had some useful input.

Here is my start and a few turns:

Spoiler :

I Settled one southeast on the plains hill. Chose animal husbandry as my first tech, I start building a warrior. There is a goody hut to my southeast so I send my warrior for it. They give me an envoy

Spoiler :

Meet Amanitore, get the first meet bonus for Kabul, and I'm just able to beat Nubia to the next goody hut, who gives me the boost for Archery. Getting it also reveals a nearby barb camp, so I send my warrior to it, hoping that Kabul's warriors will weaken it enough for me to yoink it.

Spoiler :

A barb scout comes out of the fog and my second warrior dings him. Yay for early barb troubles!!

The save is attached if anyone wants to play along.

 

[greenOak]

What is your plan for this game? Victory condition?

I'd open with a slinger than a warrior, since archers are much better defensive units.

In your last pic, I think you should have gone around the left side of the mountain and try to block him from reaching his barb camp. His camp is very likely in the fog to the west and if he gets back to the camp the barbs will start spawning units toward you. Given where your warrior is standing, the only way he can go is west and he's probably going to run the flatlands plains tile in the fog and from there you have little hope of catching him. If instead you moved to the amber tile, you'd have a much better chance to box him in between your warrior and Washington, greatly lowering the chance of barb spawns.

 

[Siddharth Venkatesh]

Do you want to avoid all spoilers? I'm playing through the map a little and would probably prefer to avoid spoilers unless you want them. The map is quite interesting, lots of competing early pressures.

This map is very rough for Bull Moose. Should still be manageable but it's not the nicest start for sure.

 

[intellectsucks]

@ Siddharth I already played this map to about turn 130 a couple of times, so feel free to spoil away, just put them in spoilers tags so that anyone else who is playing along and doesn't want them doesn't get them.

@ greenOak I don't really have a clear idea of victory condition yet. My favorite type of victory is domination, however I hear that Bull Moose Teddy is good for cultural victories. I'm open to suggestions.

I accidentally saved over the previous save DOH, so I tried to replicate my moves as closely as possible. Miraculously, I think I was able to get into the exact same position!! Here is my current progress:

Spoiler :

Started chasing that barb scout, was able to clear that barb camp. Put a settler into the capital's queue and chose the "+5 vs Barbs" card and "God King +1 faith and +1 gold". I chose God king on the off chance I find a relic/religious City State and can weasel my way into the Religious Settlements pantheon for a free settler. Otherwise I'll probably go for the one that gives bonus faith for breathtaking appeal. I want as many tiles as possible to have at least breathtaking appeal so I figure that's my best option.

Spoiler :

The barb camp that spawned that scout was not far away, I scouted northeast with my warrior thinking there was another camp up there (for some reason I didn't consider that the second barb scout was from the camp that I already cleared). Settler popped and now I'm faced with choices of where to plop him:

Option 1: Right near the horses, go for an early horse rush against Amanitore.
Option 2: Right up in her face, improve the quarry and get early walls. Unlike kill bots, my walls will not have a pre-set kill limit, so sending wave after wave of her own men into them will not be a problem. Afterwards I may be able to counter attack and get a couple of free early cities.
Option 3(the cheatiest): As I said, I played this map a couple of times and know that Kongo is right to the east. I'd like to settle that Natural wonder before he can.

Thoughts, suggestions and criticisms are all welcome!!

 

[Siddharth Venkatesh]

I would usually avoid plugging in God King. I find it weaker than Urban Planning, +1 production is a lot in the early game. Religious Settlements is near impossible to get anyways, and I think Earth Goddess is usually much better for Bull Moose, it has perfect synergy with his abilities. But there's no rush on Earth Goddess here, the appeal near your starting city is very poor. Still, it's not the worst idea to get Earth Goddess asap and start building up some faith for monumentality.

Spoiler :

I would avoid forward settling Nubia without a Declaration of Friendship. Her advantage with Potato Archers is too much, you will likely lose the city before you can get walls up. Additionally, the city you can settle to form a border is pretty bad and is very hard to defend. The North West seems completely open and has better appeal, I would go there. There is also Paititi in the North-east, which is worth settling on but there is 0 production around Paititi, so you're going to need a trade route or two to buff that city up. It is probably not best to settle that too early, despite the non-hammer yields being quite high. I'm looking at that as a fourth city, but there is a risk Kongo takes it. It might be easier to kill Kongo if he settles there rather than trying to aggressively settle it. It's too far from your cap to be easily defended and that city will need help to produce anything. Still, perhaps the high culture and gold yields from Paititi will outweigh the risk of settling it and the lack of hammers, it's a perfectly viable idea to try.

I'd also look to build a few slingers to upgrade to archers. I suspect Amanitore will war you in the early game regardless of what you do, but your starting city is very defensible with a few archers. You can also go for a Horseman rush but Potato Archers are pretty scary, so unless you grab those horses asap and go for the rush immediately, it will not be clean. I would very likely settle the horse city next anyways just to have that option, or to defend myself better.

My early game goal would be to try to settle 3-4 cities asap, one perhaps on Paititi, get a classical golden and build up some faith via Earth Goddess and go for Monumentality to pump out more settlers and builders.

I think the best victory path with Bull Moose is probably tourism because of Earth Goddess faith but that doesn't mean you can't war a little to grab territory and you can also viably do a domination or science victory with Bull Moose. However, Bull Moose's main strength is high rolling into crazy high early culture and science and you don't have that. So I would keep the viewpoint of having mostly a vanilla civ until mid classical and play as you would any other civ. I would prioritize settling high appeal sites though.

 

[intellectsucks]

Siddaharth, using Earth Goddess for monumentality was my thought process for the God King card.

Some more turns:

Spoiler :

I think I'm going to try for a horse rush vs amanitore. Was able to take out that barb camp and another one, then settled my second city here.

She forward settled me first anyway.

I'm really worried about losing the gold/culture/science yields here, but settling this wonder will be a big drag on production for a long time. Not sure I can afford it while prepping for war with Amanitore.

 

[intellectsucks]

Starting my war prep:

Spoiler :

I really got a city state meeting bonus on turn 31?

Spoiler :

Kongo settled close to this wonder, making loyalty an issue for it.

Oooh, another goody hut!!

This area looks promising for my next city, I'm really hoping for early production. I did end up choosing earth goddess for my pantheon.

Pretty set on this as my next city but I'm open to suggestions.

A good spot to settle city 4? Loyalty issues, but with a monument, governor and maybe are card or two, I may be able to make viable. Is this the best spot? Or should I go for another?

City 5? Boost for sailing, decent harbor, decent commercial hub, decent campus.

The goody hut gave me the boost for state workforce and I got foreign trade without the boost. Just about finished horseback riding and I'll probably go writing, then irrigation. Current build queues:
Washington-Archer, Settler
Baltimore-Archer, monument

After the settler is done, I'm going all units for a while in preparation for war with Amanitore.

 

[marcopolothefraud]

City 3 looks the strongest to me. It's got the strongest production, and those grassland hills will easily become 2 food/3 production with mines. However, the district adjacency will be a little weak (I see a +2 campus, maybe +3?).

I really like the gold and culture potential of city 4. I see several 3 food tiles so I hope you can grow it; however, lack of fresh water will pose a problem. I would not want to mess with loyalty issues, though - AI tends to grow tall very quickly in the early game, and Kongo will very likely get a Classical Golden Age.

City 5 suffers from a lack of hills (for production), a lack of 2 food tiles, and a lack of fresh water. Those district adjacencies look nice on paper, but I would find it very hard to grow City 5 to 7 population (let alone 4 population) fast enough to make it worth it.

Are you confident about your military prowess? I would give you some tips, but I'm not very good at land warfare myself. I like to rush my enemies with cavalry before they can get walls up, and it seems like you could potentially do that with Horseback Riding. Archers are not good at all for Offense.


Try to find some other good city sites that have fresh water and hills nearby, like City 3. Those will be your most potent cities. Think about getting a Classical Great General, too - they tend to be very competitive in some games and not competitive at all in others.

 

[intellectsucks]

City 3 looks the strongest to me. It's got the strongest production, and those grassland hills will easily become 2 food/3 production with mines. However, the district adjacency will be a little weak (I see a +2 campus, maybe +3?).

I really like the gold and culture potential of city 4. I see several 3 food tiles so I hope you can grow it; however, lack of fresh water will pose a problem. I would not want to mess with loyalty issues, though - AI tends to grow tall very quickly in the early game, and Kongo will very likely get a Classical Golden Age.

City 5 suffers from a lack of hills (for production), a lack of 2 food tiles, and a lack of fresh water. Those district adjacencies look nice on paper, but I would find it very hard to grow City 5 to 7 population (let alone 4 population) fast enough to make it worth it.

Are you confident about your military prowess? I would give you some tips, but I'm not very good at land warfare myself. I like to rush my enemies with cavalry before they can get walls up, and it seems like you could potentially do that with Horseback Riding. Archers are not good at all for Offense.


Try to find some other good city sites that have fresh water and hills nearby, like City 3. Those will be your most potent cities. Think about getting a Classical Great General, too - they tend to be very competitive in some games and not competitive at all in others.

I completely agree with your assessment of city placement, except partially for 5. My plan for city 5 is to have it help with loyalty for city 4, then eventually place Petra there and turn those desert tiles, particularly the ones getting the boost from the wonder, into absolute powerhouse tiles.

My plan is to hit Amanitore with 5-7 horsemen, 2-3 warriors/swords (if I can get Iron working up and running in time), 2-3 archers for support. Amanitore's bows/crossbows can be brutal (in another game I just finished slogging through a war with Amanitore), but enough horsemen can be an ok counter due to their speed, ie 2 will hit and kill a bow/crossbow, take a hit or two themselves, retreat, then swap out for fresh reinforcements. If I can get swords it will be even more effective as the horsemen can take out the units and the swords can take the cities. City three has a bunch of chops available and will hopefully get me enough units to make the rush effective. Only one way to find out.

 

[intellectsucks]

This update is a frustrating mixed bag:

Spoiler :

Getting a goody hut is pretty awesome. Getting a goody hut two tiles from the AI's territory is AMAZING!!!

Finished the archers in Washington and Baltimore, Settled New Orleans, sent my next settler towards that wonder, probably foolishly as my preferred spot is now -20 loyalty. Scouted the warrior near city 3 a little further southwest and found another barb camp and another good city spot. Finished a monument in Baltimore and started on builders, purchased builder in New Orleans to chop out a couple of Horsemen, though I didn't have the techs for chopping or mining yet (dumb mistake). Somewhere in all these turns I built a scout and sent him straight southeast, somehow finding another goody hut. Once I unlocked writing I sold open borders to everyone and got a couple of open borders as well. I also built a trader and sent them to Napata. Got a golden age and chose monumentality, though I'm worried that I don't have enough faith to really make use of it. The city near the wonder should help with that, if I can keep it. If I can get some quick growth in that city I've got a shot, especially during a golden age.

Next turns, keep pumping out units, get them in place to crush Amanitore. Hopefully I'll be able to stave off the next city from flipping. Wish me luck. I could use some advice on my next city placement.

This one has good production and growth possibility plus a good campus.

I'm leaning towards this one however, as it will help with my amenities and I can get the boosts for Masonry and the Wheel.

 

[intellectsucks]

Time for war!! Pretty happy with my progress but I'm a little stymied on district placement and could use some help. Also noticed that the update nerfed rationalism in this game even though it was created before the update.

Spoiler :

Amanitore took out Auckand to the southeast, so I declared with only 3 horsemen. I figured that she would have a good portion of her forces down there and I could take advantage by swiping a couple of cities. Kabul and Napata both dropped quickly, but Amanitore got some defensive units up pretty quickly. A good chance that I'll lose at least one horseman in the next turn or two.

I was able to fight off the loyalty issues near the wonder and it's got great food, culture, science and faith yields.

I settled my next city on the Amber, just left of the spot where I placed the tack in the previous post, figuring that I could get a couple of really good industrial zones out of it.

Thoughts on the next city? Option 1, west of Boston or Option Whenever? My initial thought is to settle west of Boston to get the Iron then get Stirrups and a bunch of knights, but I could be talked into another strategy.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Time for war!! Pretty happy with my progress but I'm a little stymied on district placement and could use some help. Also noticed that the update nerfed rationalism in this game even though it was created before the update.

Spoiler :

Amanitore took out Auckand to the southeast, so I declared with only 3 horsemen. I figured that she would have a good portion of her forces down there and I could take advantage by swiping a couple of cities. Kabul and Napata both dropped quickly, but Amanitore got some defensive units up pretty quickly. A good chance that I'll lose at least one horseman in the next turn or two.
View attachment 578805

View attachment 578804
I was able to fight off the loyalty issues near the wonder and it's got great food, culture, science and faith yields.

View attachment 578801
View attachment 578802
I settled my next city on the Amber, just left of the spot where I placed the tack in the previous post, figuring that I could get a couple of really good industrial zones out of it.

View attachment 578803
Thoughts on the next city? Option 1, west of Boston or Option Whenever? My initial thought is to settle west of Boston to get the Iron then get Stirrups and a bunch of knights, but I could be talked into another strategy.

I'm salivating because of those Yields.

The City west of Boston is too close to it. You can't settle there, the game will not allow you to. Move it further West, and then you will be allowed to settle.

 

[intellectsucks]

Sorry this update took a while but I had a HUGE home repair project I was working on and had some health issues.

Another frustrating mixed update. I think I'm well positioned to start running away with the game though.

Spoiler :

Didn't like the looks of the Nubian defenses so I made peace and positioned my army to heal and then quickly take her capital when I can declare again. Lucked out and didn't lose any troops so I have my whole army to go back in ten turns. Focusing on the war effort delayed my expansion though so it looks like I'm losing the opportunity to get that city next to Boston:

The one tile just Southwest of the Iron stayed green for a while but switched over to red a few turns later:

I was able to take Meroe in a couple of turns and then Kawa just to the southwest a couple of turns later. Lost one archer and horseman so not too bad. Starting to build my districts, mostly campus and commercial.

I feel like I got a damn unlucky roll on this map and can't seem to catch a break. The only other nearby Iron is in Nubia's cities east of Meroe, which now have walls up making knights and swordsmen essentially impossible. Also, while I was focusing on Nubia, Kongo snuck right up and settled the area I wanted on the other side of the wonder. I didn't really prioritize settling it yet because I figured he would be reluctant to go against the loyalty pressure from my nearby capital but I was wrong. I'm in a dark age now too, so having a monumentality fueled rapid expansion is out of the question too. There may be a peaceful path towards victory from here on out but I don't really see it and probably don't want it. Here is the state of my empire:

Yay for barb fun!!

I think I'll be able to get at a couple of my campuses to +4 to get the rationalism bonus, so that will be a help.

If the AI is going to horn in on my territory, they could at least settle quality cities; Kwila is one of the worst cities I've ever seen placed though. Super frustrating.

Any strong preferences on the city placement here?

Plans: Go to war with Kongo, raze Kwila and take as many cities as I can before peace. Replace Kwila with my own city and work on getting Petra in that city. After that I might go after Nubia again to get access to their Iron, though will it matter at that point? Settle a couple more cities to the west of the formerly Nubian cities. Need to pick a victory soon. I'm not sure I'm well positioned for anything other than Domination, possibly science? I have to get some more scouting done too, my one scout got waylaid by barbs and had to retreat. Might build another one.

 

[intellectsucks]

Another update that took way too long!!! For the first time this game, everything went 100% according to plan.

Spoiler :

Upgraded a couple of my Horsemen to Coursers as they moved up towards Kongo, then quickly took out Kwila and Mbamba.

Settled my next city, Philadelphia, here. Side note: I have an unexplainable joy when I build Philadelphia in Civ games.

Upgraded the last of my horsemen to coursers, built a couple more and then steamrolled Kongo. I didn't lose a single unit; it was embarrassing. I think I just got super lucky (for once) because none of his cities had walls yet, which would have slowed me down considerably.

Found a nice spot for my next city too. It seems that the game is making up for my total lack of Iron by flooding me with Niter. How nice of them.

I can't imagine going for any other victory but domination at this point. I've taken two capitals already, Rio is super close, so is Geongju.

I'm not sure I can take Auckland in time to win the emergency which sucks; joining when I didn't have my army in place to take advantage was a stupid mistake on my part. Despite that, and despite the fact that her bazillions of crossbows will make it a frustrating slog, I'm probably going to wipe out Nubia. First off, I'm still pissed that she gave me so much trouble on the previous times I played this map and would love the satisfaction. Second, it will open up another front for me to surround Byzantine when I get around to going after him. Finally, it will finally give me some iron, which I might need when I get to cuirassiers? I've never had a game go this long without having any access to Iron, so I actually have no idea whether you can go straight from Heavy Chariots to Cuirassiers.

UNLESS......maybe it's better to go after Brazil or Korea. I'm sort of leaning towards Brazil next, but Korea has a decent lead in science and I'm a little worried about her starting to get too far ahead. Also, she's my only ally on the map, so keeping the research alliance with her is a boost. I guess taking out Byzantine might even be a decent idea since my army is already in the area.

Choices, choices, choices.....

In any case, the plan is certainly to pump out a ton more units and get those rivers of blood flowing.

 

[intellectsucks]

Progress, progress, progress.

Spoiler :

A couple turns after my last update I ran into Lady Six Sky (didn't get the meet all civs bonus unfortunately). I sent a delegation right away and also went to negotiate open borders (since she was likely to hate me the next turn for warring so much) and she made me an offer I couldn't refuse (lots of money, not a horses head in my bed) to declare on Byzantium. Who am I to turn down a gift like that?

This game also helped me identify a big flaw in my gameplay. Wayne Gretzky said something to the effect of "I don't skate where the puck is, I skate to where it's going to be." My gameplay has been too focused on what I'm doing NOW and not focused enough of what I'm GOING to be doing. Case in point: I march my whole army down to war against Nubia and have to wait 10-12 turns before I can start taking cities because I have no battering rams, siege towers or siege weapons. I get them out as quickly as possible and finally crush Amanitore. I don't know if a concession screen has ever felt so satisfying.

I'm now marching on Byzantium and should be able to roll him like a marble.

More of my empire if anyone is interested.

I now have almost triple the number of cities of my nearest competitor so I can pretty much choose my victory type but with Byzantium about to destroyed and two easily accessible capitals, I'm going domination. Since no one else is commenting on this game I'll play it to the end and just post the results and any interesting developments. Thanks for the feedback and advice from everyone who commented. Hopefully others have followed and found some useful things from it as well.

 

[intellectsucks]

Victory is mine!!

Spoiler :

This may be the latest I've ever gotten a religion...turn 176.

Mansa Musa looks PISSED about losing.

This is also the first game I've played where I've eliminated EVERY other civ. Usually I leave most civs with 2 or 3 cities once I'm done warring with them but this time it was just easy to wipe them out.

Byzantium fell so quickly it was ridiculous, as did Brazil shortly afterwards and Lady Six Sky shortly after that. Somehow while I was at war with Byzantium and Brazil, I became friendly with everyone and created another alliance with Mali (economic), so it took me a while to get to them. Halfway through my war with Mansa Musa, I was able to buy a GDR right next to Korea's territory, so I declared on them too. A few turns later and it was all over but the shouting.

This game really taught me to appreciate naval combat, as I used it much more when attacking cities than I have previously. Having a couple more units bombarding and eating damage against coastal cities is very helpful, as is being able to put coastal cities under siege. Other lessons I learned: I need to plan much further ahead; there were multiple times when I made foolish mistakes that set me back a bunch of turns (like when I went to war with Amanitore with no siege units). Other than that, i'm very happy with this game and my progress. Thanks to everyone to helped me with some