Capital Cottages Conundrum

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Jeros

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Ok I have this issue, I tend to play as Elizabeth giving the nice financial trait, I also tend to rush Pyramids if I can so I can grab Representation or Universal Suffrage as needed.

This gives the possibility of having some VERY strong early game cottages/hamlets/towns etc with the extra gold from tiles and the hammer produced with US.

My main issue is that I do not know if want to stick them around the capital or not, particularly say on a river, the extra gold instantly due to financial is a nice boon at the start of the game, also that extra hammer always helps.

Now I normally build my capital into god tier production and GP powerhouses, full of wonders and pumping out GP's like nobody business, thus its farms and workshops for it, cottages on “extra” tiles were I do not feel I need another workshop. This results in a city where I am often pumping out military units at a rate of 1 per turn! Which is fantastic when you get into a scrape and suddenly need to beef out your army, in the 6 or 7 turns your opponent takes to get his army to the city he is going for you can have beefed up its defences with new units, also continually adding great generals as specialists is also amusing, when every brand new unit has three promotions you can really get your expansionist ball rolling.

However by building early cottages around the capital, by the time I reach mid game I would have a massive amount of income from it, giving faster advancement and better income to manipulate global affairs and purchase buildings in smaller cities to get them up and running faster. I am lothe to give up techs rather than cash to buy peace when 3 or 5 AIs decare on war on me at once, also it would give good production in the eras before workshops become amazing, but also a smaller population. I am so torn, this is one of the reasons why I dislike specialists outside of the capital, its often so hard trying to figure out the “optimal” setup for them that I just decide to work another tile and grow the city in question.

For my next game the military production centre is being moved to a different city (preferably on on the coast so naval units can get the great general promos as well as land units).

This frees up my capital for sniping wonders and other such things, but the question with this is that if I still want to pump out GP's do I want farms for expanding the city and thus more specialists? Or do I want to grab early cottages for that early game boost and stronger midgame income and science output? Or should I leave that to the satellite cities?

Normally satellite cities are turned into commerce centres with cottages all around them, but having sat down and worked out how gosh darn powerful they are, even at early game with ancient era US and Financial and I am wondering if I am doing myself a disservice by neglecting them in my capital.

I should point out that by mid game I tend not to have any more than 6 or 7 cities, I am not keen on pumping out next to useless drains on the economy like the AI does. A small empire, but one with lots of cash and pumping out colonies on unpopulated islands like nobodys business, ironically just like the British Empire did :P.
 
This frees up my capital for sniping wonders and other such things, but the question with this is that if I still want to pump out GP's do I want farms for expanding the city and thus more specialists? Or do I want to grab early cottages for that early game boost and stronger midgame income and science output? Or should I leave that to the satellite cities?
Capital is fine for the first few great people, but many players develop a Great Person Farm (GPF) with lots of food and generate most of their great persons there.
If you built a lot of wonders in your capital, then it will keep generating GP. I would not replace cottages/towns with farms.
Spoiler :
but I'm not a top player
I also don't replace cottages/towns with workshops, which some of the top players do when they have all the ws bonuses.
 
Almost all good players exclusively cottage their capitals, found an Academy in it, run Bureacracy and by that have enough Research and Gold to fuel a completely empire. It's often good to get the 1st early GS from the Capital because that city will have the earliest Library most probably, but past that point it's usually np to found another city that works as the GP-Farm.

Regarding your the picture: Building wonders hurts your game a lot, you could easily conquer them, and I don't believe that 1 unit / T at all, maybe in Industrial Era with having a Factory, but I want to see that city that builds a usual unit to win the game with in 1T, meaning an Elephant, a Cuirrassier or a Siege Weapon until including Cannons.

Also: Workshops are only really good with Chemistry and State Property and / or Caste, before that, the whip is as strong so you could easily not have them. From the picture you gave I'm assuming that your games go far longer than your skills would allow and that you use the whip way too seldomly.

S.

P.S.: Towsn take extremely long to grow, think about running REP before, it's very powerful.
 
Thanks and 1 unit per turn is entirely possible.

Production focus and:

Heroic Epic for +100% military unit production bonus.
Miltary Acadamy for +50% mililtary unit production bonus.


In my last game I was at Riflemen/Cavalry stage, a Rifleman was 70 :hammers: and took 1 turn, Cavalry was 2 turns for the first then 1 turn for the next with production overspill.

Total captial :hammers: for miltary units was about 84ish (I think), and I think that was after I dropped bureaucracy, so enough for a treb. I could have probs boosted it for 1 Cavalry per turn but was happy with the way it was.

There were 3 mines, 3 workshops at 4 :hammers:, some grasslands copper, and various other odds and ends like forge in the city, also lots of GP's added as specalists if they limited other use and assorted resources and stuff.

Even earlier in the game that city was awesome, when I built the Sprial Minaret at 550 :hammers:, with all the production bonuses I was running at the time I knocked it out in 10 turns or so.

Noble difficulty btw.

Wish I had kept playing that game now....


The thing you said about capturing wonders is valid, but on a huge map they may be so far away or on another continent that by the time you get to them they may be obsolete and your oppenent has gotten all the benefit they could ever get for them.

For favorite has to be the Great Wall, I hide behind that and go into micromanage mode while the AI gets knocked about by barbarians. On a huge map, its going to be a while before the AI proper is really going to bother me, I can focus on expanding and setting up cities without worrying about random pillaging or barbarian uprising.
 
GW is a good Wonder, Mids are too, building those on Huge maps is a valid choice, but Spiral Minaret? That Wonder is completely crap, University of Sankore is already crap but Spiral Minaret is even worse, also, at that time you should roam the whole map already and have no problems with conquering it.

And you didn't read my whole sentence, "any unit to win the game with" and then I named units. If you're playing Huge maps, Cavalries are ok, but I also said "the whip is as good as those normal Chemistry Workshops, and for the Workshops to be better you need to have State-Property and / or Caste" and that is true. Have you thought about maybe researching Biology, building Farms, building Kremlin and simply run Slavery and whip those units?

Rifles btw. can be drafted, which is a lot cheaper than producing them normally, and rush-buying things early greatly hurts research and only gets efficient when at least Banks + Kremlin are available, question again, whip? Food is quite easy to get, as is Happiness once Calendar is available, and Elephants can get you as much land as you want, I've conquered maps on Deity with them.

You should still cottage your capital, but how about only improving the Food + the grassland Mines in the other cities, farm one city completely and use it as a GP-Farm and keep the arbitary cities small via the whip, therefor get the units earlier and conquer the maps with Elephants + Siege, Cuirrassiers, Draft-Rifles and Cavs?

I've become careful with interfering with someone's play after getting hostile reactions for that all the time, so it's your choice whether you want to try that.

Regarding what you say in the beginning: Military Academies are great if whipping units / standard-producing them, but they have no advantage when drafting. Are you aware of the Nationhood Civic?
 
Just a minor input, you might want to consider a MilSpec city for your Academy and Epic, along with all the additional goodies that would go with it.
 
Ok I have this issue, I tend to play as Elizabeth giving the nice financial trait, I also tend to rush Pyramids if I can so I can grab Representation or Universal Suffrage as needed.

This gives the possibility of having some VERY strong early game cottages/hamlets/towns etc with the extra gold from tiles and the hammer produced with US.
Just to be sure, you do realise that the hammer from US only applies to towns and not cottages hamlets or villages right? Combined with the fact that rushbuy is rubbish till quite late through the game building Pyramids for US is, at best, a waste of 500:hammers:!
 
It's also a bit of a waste to use a GG for a MilAcademy in the Heroic Epic city; the +50% has less net effect over the +100% (puls other modifiers) than in a non-HE city. Raising 225% (Base+Forge+HE) to 275% (Base+Forge+HE+MilA) is a net increase of 22% (50/225). Raising 125% (Base+Forge) to 175% (Base+Forge+MilA) is a net increase of 40% (50/125). I'd put the MilA in my West Point city, separate from the HE city. If on a watery map, one or the other should be on the sea and probably the Moi Statue city as well.

Pyramids should initially be used to run Rep. I often times have enough towns to consider running US before I've actually discovered Democracy, so the Mids would allow an earlier switch to US, but that would be sometime in the renaissance period, well after the mids are built.
 
It's also a bit of a waste to use a GG for a MilAcademy in the Heroic Epic city; the +50% has less net effect over the +100% (puls other modifiers) than in a non-HE city. Raising 225% (Base+Forge+HE) to 275% (Base+Forge+HE+MilA) is a net increase of 22% (50/225). Raising 125% (Base+Forge) to 175% (Base+Forge+MilA) is a net increase of 40% (50/125). I'd put the MilA in my West Point city, separate from the HE city. If on a watery map, one or the other should be on the sea and probably the Moi Statue city as well.

Actually, moving in city A from 100 % production bonus to 150 % bonus is not better than moving in city B from 225 % to 275 %. Relative increase (22 & 40 % in your previous example) does not matter. What matters are the actual hammers gained from "MilA", and that is of course calculated as: Base hammers produced * 50 %. So if city B has a higher base production than City A it makes sense to put military academy in there.

The reason why you would not want to stack more multiplers in your best production/military pump city is that you are already capable of 1-turning units in there. Or maybe some geographical reason that makes you want to have 2 regional military cities instead of only one focused city.
 
It's also a bit of a waste to use a GG for a MilAcademy in the Heroic Epic city; the +50% has less net effect over the +100% (puls other modifiers) than in a non-HE city. Raising 225% (Base+Forge+HE) to 275% (Base+Forge+HE+MilA) is a net increase of 22% (50/225). Raising 125% (Base+Forge) to 175% (Base+Forge+MilA) is a net increase of 40% (50/125).

This is not true. While there is indeed less direct increase, you should still place a MilAcademy in your HE city if it can't produce units in one turn (AKA almost always). If your HE city is putting out 20 H/T (raw) and your other city puts out 20 H/T both will gain ten hammers per turn by building the Military Academy, with the difference that your H.E. city will have a barracks (/stable) in it, possibly some settled GGs and will be producing units for the largest part of the game.

EDIT: Ninja'ed
 
The other thing with Military Academies is that they're instantaneous. You may not want to take your Heroic Epic city and its settled GG away from building units in order to build a Factory/Coal Plant, which makes the MA more attractive. MAs don't add pollution, either.
 
I find it hard to imagine that situation. Factory + PP is so strong, that one wants them in any city and any game that isn't already very close to winning at that point.
 
GW is a good Wonder, Mids are too, building those on Huge maps is a valid choice, but Spiral Minaret? That Wonder is completely crap, University of Sankore is already crap but Spiral Minaret is even worse, also, at that time you should roam the whole map already and have no problems with conquering it.

And you didn't read my whole sentence, "any unit to win the game with" and then I named units. If you're playing Huge maps, Cavalries are ok, but I also said "the whip is as good as those normal Chemistry Workshops, and for the Workshops to be better you need to have State-Property and / or Caste" and that is true. Have you thought about maybe researching Biology, building Farms, building Kremlin and simply run Slavery and whip those units?

Rifles btw. can be drafted, which is a lot cheaper than producing them normally, and rush-buying things early greatly hurts research and only gets efficient when at least Banks + Kremlin are available, question again, whip? Food is quite easy to get, as is Happiness once Calendar is available, and Elephants can get you as much land as you want, I've conquered maps on Deity with them.

You should still cottage your capital, but how about only improving the Food + the grassland Mines in the other cities, farm one city completely and use it as a GP-Farm and keep the arbitary cities small via the whip, therefor get the units earlier and conquer the maps with Elephants + Siege, Cuirrassiers, Draft-Rifles and Cavs?

I've become careful with interfering with someone's play after getting hostile reactions for that all the time, so it's your choice whether you want to try that.

Regarding what you say in the beginning: Military Academies are great if whipping units / standard-producing them, but they have no advantage when drafting. Are you aware of the Nationhood Civic?

Cheers for the info, I don't think SM is crap, +2 from state relgion buildings is pretty good depending on the size of your empire and how many you built. Anything that boosts the gold output is good for me, more money to bribe the AI into fighting each other and so forth, leaving me to pounce when they are in a weakend state.

I never whip, belive it or not, mainly for roleplaying purposes and partly as there are not many situations where I think "I would sac population to rush this *thing*", Then again I tend to focus most of my effords on a selection of three of four main cities, everything else is just there to grow itself and the surrounding cottages.

Maybe suboptimal but I enjoy it, at noble I tend to be midrange on the scoreboard when Renaissance hits, wallowing in cash and building up an army of highly promoted units as soon as they leave the production city. New units with combat 3 is nice. This allows me to wipe the floor with the AI, failing that rush their big cities and sue for peace/capitulation.

Also for this reason I avoid drafting unless its an emergancy and I need those base units to save my ass.

I was just wondering if starting up my cottage industry earlier might be a better idea.

I probs need to up my difficulty tbh, but will see how I fare in late game. I suffer from "never finishing a game" syndrome that a lot of people have.

"Right, time to go back to taking over the world in yesterdays game.....then again there are a few things I could have done better at the start....best make a new game"

You have never seen so many good games thrown in your life, hell my last game was amazing, weathered wars from almost every single AI and came out on top, why on earth did I never finish it.....

Just to be sure, you do realise that the hammer from US only applies to towns and not cottages hamlets or villages right? Combined with the fact that rushbuy is rubbish till quite late through the game building Pyramids for US is, at best, a waste of 500!

Aye I get that, I mainly run it for Representation at the very start of the game, tho rethinking it as I am starting to shy away from specialists untill later on.
 
SM is shite :lol: You know what else is good for boosting your gold output? building wealth :lol: really, it takes too long for it to pay off in most (like 95%) scenarios.

Whip is you main weapon, literally, even when tanks are rolling around. A city with 3 farms and a mine can be one of your main production sites :lol:

Cottage industry .. If you mean your capitol then yes. Even 1-2 overlapping cities are highly advisable to work cottages at all times whenever the capitol cannot work them (using mines to build buildings etc). Other than that as much as you can spare while you are rexing or conquering someones cities. Land is power, land is power:king:

Also I should mention after reading the "main cities" bit that all cities should be specialized for either beakers, hammers, GPP's etc, if you are working cottages and pumping out units often from 1 city then most of the time I'd say something is wrong :)
 
SM is shite :lol: You know what else is good for boosting your gold output? building wealth :lol: really, it takes too long for it to pay off in most (like 95%) scenarios.

Whip is you main weapon, literally, even when tanks are rolling around. A city with 3 farms and a mine can be one of your main production sites :lol:

Cottage industry .. If you mean your capitol then yes. Even 1-2 overlapping cities are highly advisable to work cottages at all times whenever the capitol cannot work them (using mines to build buildings etc). Other than that as much as you can spare while you are rexing or conquering someones cities. Land is power, land is power:king:

Also I should mention after reading the "main cities" bit that all cities should be specialized for either beakers, hammers, GPP's etc, if you are working cottages and pumping out units often from 1 city then most of the time I'd say something is wrong :)

SM isn't that bad if you built the University of Sankore (which comes on a tech you're going to get early anyway) and your religious buildings are the AP religion , but it begs the question why in god's sake you researched divine right.

Yeah, building wealth is the best short-term solution for creating money, and since short-term tends to snow-ball into long-term benefits, it is the best option overall. Markets are just too expensive and only worth building later on/if you control many of their happy resources.

I've seen a game by Seraiel where he still specializes his cities but mainly goes for hammer specialization because it's so easy to set-up (forge + granary and that's it) and so versatile (building wealth/research or units). I kind of like that style of play. However, you should definitely get some cottages going at least in one city - Oxford + bureaucracy is extremely powerful (with added University, Library and Academy it gives a dazzling 375% multiplier on all the commerce you make, meaning 15 commerce 7 towns give almost 400 beakers).
 
I find it hard to imagine that situation. Factory + PP is so strong, that one wants them in any city and any game that isn't already very close to winning at that point.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
 
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

My name is not Horatio and your quote doesn't say anything about that specific situation. Plz try to argue why one would not build a Factory + PP in a production city when one is not close to winning instead of trying to make me look ********, something I'm not.
 
My name is not Horatio and your quote doesn't say anything about that specific situation. Plz try to argue why one would not build a Factory + PP in a production city when one is not close to winning instead of trying to make me look ********, something I'm not.

I hate to say this Seraiel because I am a big fan of yours but the meaning to that allegory is obvious and apt. Not that I don't necessarily agree with your statements regarding Factories (I'm not sure I know what PP means, should it be CP = coal plant) but 6K Man's point is obvious.

Still, plenty of people get defensive over your perceived criticisms so I don't blame you for getting defensive over this one.
 
PP = Power Plant I believe.

Nice quote 6K, been awhile since I've seen it.
 
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