Capitulation rules?

[paulcarri]

Hey all

Im a bit confused about freedom from vassal state when the AI capitulates?
Ive rarely taken vassals, i prefer to wipe them out.

I was trying for a quick domination on a standard size map.

I invaded frederick with a tonne of cavalry, took his capital and wiped out the stack he sent in defense.

I noticed he was willing to talk..so clicked out of curiosity and he offered all his money, world map and capitulation..after losing one city!!

Now his population is almost the same size as mine.. and it says on the tooltip that when his pop is 50% of mine he becomes free

Does this mean that after ten turns he can declare himself free?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've never seen an AI capitulate to a human and break free unless you treat them poorly IE demand resources. Never, even under some rather ridiculous circumstances like "vassal is larger than master and 5x his strength" the vassal didn't break free.

AI could, and maybe it was intended to do so (it will do so with other AI), but I've yet to see any evidence it happens with human capitulated vassals.

Peacevassals will break off from you if you get too weak militarily IIRC, though there might be additional factors to it beyond that.

 

[paulcarri]

I've never seen an AI capitulate to a human and break free unless you treat them poorly IE demand resources. Never, even under some rather ridiculous circumstances like "vassal is larger than master and 5x his strength" the vassal didn't break free.

AI could, and maybe it was intended to do so (it will do so with other AI), but I've yet to see any evidence it happens with human capitulated vassals.

Peacevassals will break off from you if you get too weak militarily IIRC, though there might be additional factors to it beyond that.

Hmm that could make for some very quick domination wins - thanks!

 

[Manco Capac]

One rule I'm possibly one of the few to know is when you get a defense pact, whatsoever the partner in defense power, the vassal WON'T ever DoW at you for any demanded resource.

Complete information set about demand of resources from vassals.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Hmm that could make for some very quick domination wins - thanks!

Couple of clarifications. 50% of population isn't the only condition for a capitulated AI to break free, there are others. There's a guide in the strategy section for vassals that includes information on capitulation. And, yes, taking vassals does make for very quick domination wins. You can even get some peacevassals. This also helps for diplomation wins.

I also have never had a capitulated or peacevassal break free, although I tend to treat my enlightened vassals well. I find demanding resources usually isn't necessary, because vassals often seem to trade on very favorable terms for me (I cheat them and they like me more).

In order to minimize diplomacy problems, try to convert your vassals to your religion or Free Religion if you run that civic. Remember, vassals can mess up your diplomacy without the diplomacy screen telling you.

 

[paulcarri]

It would save a huge amount of time, basically you just need to break the back of their army, take minimum cities and move to the next target... ill try this on current game, although my starting resources are plains sheep and wine so it will be an interesting game

 

[noto2]

Yes, it's one of the more interesting choices in the game - when winning a war, do you keep slogging it out until you take all your victim's land or do you accept the quick capitulation? It really depends on the game/your goals

 

[paulcarri]

Yes, it's one of the more interesting choices in the game - when winning a war, do you keep slogging it out until you take all your victim's land or do you accept the quick capitulation? It really depends on the game/your goals

In the past ive wiped them out because i was worried about them breaking free... if what your saying is spot on though i could even gift back the captured cities...and have a useful ally instead of a broken one

 

[Olson]

In the past ive wiped them out because i was worried about them breaking free... if what your saying is spot on though i could even gift back the captured cities...and have a useful ally instead of a broken one

If you have recently captured cities from a diff. civ. then it might be better to gift them those.
1) It may put your vassal between you and that other civ,
2) Gifting back a vassal's own cities will restore their previous cultural boundries and that may not be the most advantageous for you,
3) It's better for you if your vassal has a number of non-contiguous cultural boundries as this prevents it from consolidating one core area again and it's distance from capital maintenance will be higher (not so much yours)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Unless the city is in revolt, you always get your own full fat cross over your vassal's culture, regardless of tile culture. Just don't give legendary cities back to culture-attempting AI.

I've literally grabbed a cap vassal on deity, gifted all cities back, gifted it resources, then spammed units to it. It conquered lots of land, running away. It still never broke free. I don't think under ordinary circumstances you have to worry about cap vassals just happening to break free.

 

[Lennier]

I also have never had a capitulated or peacevassal break free, although I tend to treat my enlightened vassals well. I find demanding resources usually isn't necessary, because vassals often seem to trade on very favorable terms for me (I cheat them and they like me more).

It may have changed in BTS, but I had a price-level Warlords game where Ragnar became my peace-vassal, wait 10 turns, break free, wait 10 turns, p-vassal to me, wait 10 turns, break free, etc. I found it to be hilariously annoying.

It would save a huge amount of time, basically you just need to break the back of their army, take minimum cities and move to the next target... ill try this on current game, although my starting resources are plains sheep and wine so it will be an interesting game

Your vassals' population and land are halved and added to yours before comparing to the domination limit.

 

[paulcarri]

I did this on my first emp win- cant believe ive wiped out every civ in previous games, it took soooo long

One huge advantage to me is not having to garrison a tonne of captured cities.. i had a force of veterans that went from invasion to invasion (yes i had some losses but the core survived) - most my losses were the suicide cannon/arty

 

[Moai_Spammer]

i used to think vassels were great but i recently had a vassal who would never accept demands that weren't resources and i couldn't kill em

 

[Willem]

One rule I'm possibly one of the few to know is when you get a defense pact, whatsoever the partner in defense power, the vassal WON'T ever DoW at you for any demanded resource.

That's common knowledge. A vassal can't declare war on anyone unless it's master declares it. Vassals will always follow the military lead of the master, they can't make those decisions on their own.

 

[Kjotleik]

That's common knowledge. A vassal can't declare war on anyone unless it's master declares it. Vassals will always follow the military lead of the master, they can't make those decisions on their own.

I think you have misunderstood what Tachywaxon said here.

1 - You are correct that vassals cannot declare on their own against other civ's. But that wasn't what he talked about.

2 - Vassals CAN break free (automatically declare war) from YOU, if you demand a resource from them - and they don't want to give it to you.

3 - Tachywaxon said that if you have a Defensive Pact with someone - THEN the vassal will never break free from you when you demand their resources.

This last point is new to me to. You learn new things every day...



Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[Manco Capac]

@Kjotleik

Exactly. There are occasion where demanding resources are risk-free. In some old article, it is highly misleading how resource demands work. For instance, the first demand works all the time, which is profoundly wrong and cost me a vassal the very turn I capitulated him. That was sad and forced me to code dive.

Wait....I'll fetch the article I wrote about it. HERE!

 

[Yxklyx]

Does anyone here know more about when an AI nation will capitulate? I'm currently in a war against Maya and Russia is also at war with them. I'm worried that Maya will capitulate to Russia before I can take some of the better Mayan cities.

 

[Manco Capac]

Does anyone here know more about when an AI nation will capitulate? I'm currently in a war against Maya and Russia is also at war with them. I'm worried that Maya will capitulate to Russia before I can take some of the better Mayan cities.

First, thanks for your article about the AP. Extensively used I can assure you.

Can you release your save? That'll help.

Capitulation boils down to two levels of check in form of denials.

1) The first check that has priority is like "We're fine on our own!" or "We're afraid of your enemies!".
The first one is the most important and the most common. Also the one that annoys people because it is tied to all nations in the world.
IIRC, there's a calculated threshold of 2/3*(SumOfAllPowers/#players) and if the one is over that threshold, that potential capitulee will refuse any capitulation because "they feel confident" in their own power. The problem of that denial arises when you left alive a bunch of devastated vassals with few cities (or crappy) with an immensely weak army. That plummets the threshold and impede your future capitulations. Peacevassaling works same for the same denial.

2) The second check is "You're joking, right!" denial, which is basically a thing for capitulation only, not peacevassaling. It's basically tied to War Success system where once you reach the threshold of 40 points, the AI is willing to relinquish power. It's basically a denial that says do damages before considering we have lost.

How War Success is calculated?

There's a balance Sheet for both sides and a substraction is done. Positive WSuccess on your side and negative on the capitulee side.

Attacking and win ==> 4 points
Defending and win ==> 3 points
Capture a city ==> 10 points
Capture a worker or settler ==> 1 points
Nuke ==> always 10 points per explosion
Units in Ships ==> 0 points
Workers/Settlers that accompany some escort ==> It is an amalgam of attacking a unit plus the # of non combat units captured.
Example: Won over an archer and captured two workers at the same time is worth 6 war success points.

And that covers all in a nutshell.

There are also the factors as increased resistance (XML value) that comes with certain leaders (most known is Genghis) and number of war allies that border the pot. capitulee, but that is advanced capitulation knowledge.

To not worry about Pacal II peacevassaling, just beg some gold (to neutralize the war dec once peacevassaling occurs) or bribe someone on the one you think may become a master.
Never mind that last statement. Both of you are war allies.

 

[paulcarri]

Does anyone here know more about when an AI nation will capitulate? I'm currently in a war against Maya and Russia is also at war with them. I'm worried that Maya will capitulate to Russia before I can take some of the better Mayan cities.

They dont have to even be ar war i think?

It was a long time ago so correct me if im wrong, but- one of my first games (monarch)

spain attacked me - usual religious hatred

I countered, wiped out her armies and closed in on her cities

Then...she vassaled to gilgamesh!!! Lots of time fighting, no gains..

It was a long time ago, but i am sure thats what happened.

 

[Seraiel]

The possibility of Peace vassaling depends on the specific Civ and its relation towards the other Civ.

Take a look at this extremely awesome guide ^^ .